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01-24-2018, 07:45 AM   #121
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Aside from being new and different, and a shiny, hip, signaling, consumer bauble,
  1. What are the characteristics of a MILC in use, with a 24-70 and 70-200 equivalent lens mounted?
  2. What prevents Pentax from offering a competitive K-mount camera with those general characteristics that also has unique Pentax DNA?

.@Mistral75


Last edited by monochrome; 01-24-2018 at 09:05 AM.
01-24-2018, 10:33 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by guinnessman Quote
However with mirrorless, I would rather see them do a Sony and design something fresh from the ground up, don't see why they could do an adapter that allows some backwards compatibility, IIRC both Sony and Canon can do it.
To be fair, Sony and Canon don't have to deal with a mechanical aperture lever. Which is why I'm interested to see how Nikon will solve the problem when they announce their mirrorless platform, as their "E" lenses are so new and few that any F-mount adapter would have to accommodate non-E lenses (with mechanical aperture lever) to be of any use.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Aside from being new and different, and a shiny, hip, signaling, consumer bauble,
  1. What are the characteristics of a MILC in use, with a 24-70 and 70-200 equivalent lens mounted?
  2. What prevents Pentax from offering a competitive K-mount camera with those general characteristics that also has unique Pentax DNA?
Would losing the option to go truly small and light via a shorter flange distance and lenses to take advantage of it (after all, Pentax knows a thing or two about pancakes etc.) be worth keeping the K-mount for mirrorless? Not everyone needs/wants 24-70 and 70-200 equivalent lenses.


Unless you're advocating that Pentax not make a new MILC at all.
01-24-2018, 03:06 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
To be fair, Sony and Canon don't have to deal with a mechanical aperture lever. Which is why I'm interested to see how Nikon will solve the problem when they announce their mirrorless platform, as their "E" lenses are so new and few that any F-mount adapter would have to accommodate non-E lenses (with mechanical aperture lever) to be of any use.


[/LIST]Would losing the option to go truly small and light via a shorter flange distance and lenses to take advantage of it (after all, Pentax knows a thing or two about pancakes etc.) be worth keeping the K-mount for mirrorless? Not everyone needs/wants 24-70 and 70-200 equivalent lenses.


Unless you're advocating that Pentax not make a new MILC at all.
I was asking the question, not advocating - but - would an MILC with a 45.46mm flange focal distance and DA Limited Pancakes reworked with KAF4 and PLM motors be a sales leader? IOW
  1. Is size the singular differentiating benefit of MILC?
  2. How small is ‘small’ when a useful lens is mounted?
  3. How important is the aperture lever (backward compatibility) vs. a KAF4 MILC?
  4. Is the current consumer taste for one or two zooms worth Ignoring for MILC?
I don’t propose any answers, other than I personally believe the ergonomics of current MILC’s are horrible - close to unuseable.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-24-2018 at 04:40 PM.
01-24-2018, 03:47 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
To be fair, Sony and Canon don't have to deal with a mechanical aperture lever. Which is why I'm interested to see how Nikon will solve the problem when they announce their mirrorless platform, as their "E" lenses are so new and few that any F-mount adapter would have to accommodate non-E lenses (with mechanical aperture lever) to be of any use.

(...)
Lenses in Minolta AF / Sony A mount do have an aperture lever.

Nikon "E" lenses aren't that new or that few: the first three were announced in 2008, almost ten years ago, and, among the 96 Nikkor lenses listed on their website (among which 8 are Ai-s manual focus lenses and 14 are AF D screw-driven lenses), 18 are E lenses.

01-25-2018, 12:36 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I was asking the question, not advocating - but - would an MILC with a 45.46mm flange focal distance and DA Limited Pancakes reworked with KAF4 and PLM motors be a sales leader? IOW
  1. Is size the singular differentiating benefit of MILC?
  2. How small is ‘small’ when a useful lens is mounted?
  3. How important is the aperture lever (backward compatibility) vs. a KAF4 MILC?
  4. Is the current consumer taste for one or two zooms worth Ignoring for MILC?
I don’t propose any answers, other than I personally believe the ergonomics of current MILC’s are horrible - close to unuseable.
From a simple technical Pov, I don't believe pancakes are possible with in-lens motors. At least not as compact as 'our' pancakes.
01-25-2018, 03:47 AM   #126
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If Pentax does mirrorless, it has to be their own take on it. The idea that they are going to churn out specs monsters like Sony does is silly. That won't happen. And if all you are doing is releasing a little thinner versions of cameras like the k70 and K-P, but with fewer lenses available for mounting without an adapter, that could be problematic.

Like it or not, Sony's cameras sell for the most part because they are part of line up that is very strong in video and have cameras in the line up that really have high end specifications. Not all of their cameras match the A9, but that's the sort of camera that gets good reviews and attracts more photographers to the brand.

I really do doubt that the majority of Sony photographers purchase A7s to mount old manual focus lenses on. Yes, you can adapt any lens to those cameras and probably many people do experiment with it a little bit, but even those who do are still using mainly Sony or Canon lenses on their cameras. Which begs the question, how many sales would Pentax lose by doing a K-02 (K mount mirrorless with good ergonomics, decent specs, and an EVF) over a new mirrorless mount with a K to new mount adapter?
01-25-2018, 03:51 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
From a simple technical Pov, I don't believe pancakes are possible with in-lens motors. At least not as compact as 'our' pancakes.
From a simple experimental point of view however...
01-25-2018, 03:54 AM   #128
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And something to compare with:


01-25-2018, 04:54 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If Pentax does mirrorless, it has to be their own take on it. The idea that they are going to churn out specs monsters like Sony does is silly. That won't happen. And if all you are doing is releasing a little thinner versions of cameras like the k70 and K-P, but with fewer lenses available for mounting without an adapter, that could be problematic.

Like it or not, Sony's cameras sell for the most part because they are part of line up that is very strong in video and have cameras in the line up that really have high end specifications. Not all of their cameras match the A9, but that's the sort of camera that gets good reviews and attracts more photographers to the brand.

I really do doubt that the majority of Sony photographers purchase A7s to mount old manual focus lenses on. Yes, you can adapt any lens to those cameras and probably many people do experiment with it a little bit, but even those who do are still using mainly Sony or Canon lenses on their cameras. Which begs the question, how many sales would Pentax lose by doing a K-02 (K mount mirrorless with good ergonomics, decent specs, and an EVF) over a new mirrorless mount with a K to new mount adapter?
An alternative would be a partnership or if possible joining another, existing mount.

The problem with going mirrorless on either K or a new mount is that there don’t appear to be enough sales around to make growing a lens system for it more than a struggle, probably not a very profitable one. So Pentax would be in the same fix they are in today. Sony, Fuji, M43, as examples? There may be some options. Going it alone could be very tricky unless the cams had fixed lenses like the GR or some of the Canon compacts. But of course those are not system cameras and the Pentax line is. Too bad the deal with shifty Samsung came to nothing but perhaps there are less shifty partners out there. Pentax still have a lot to offer.

Last edited by mecrox; 01-25-2018 at 05:36 AM.
01-25-2018, 05:36 AM   #130
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KMZ once contacted Ricoh, as well as other camera makers I presume, about a potential partnership on developing a mirrorless camera with a new mount. KMZ were more specifically interested in developing and manufacturing lenses for this new system camera.

KMZ eventually chose Leica as partner but nothing concrete has come out of this initiative yet.
01-25-2018, 05:49 AM   #131
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As for small compact mirror less, m43 is fine by me but prevents FF option and would impose different sensors, different crops etc. There's Fuji's but then again: no FF.

Alliance with Sony or Canon is pretty much doubtful.

Alliance with Fuji around medium format would be interesting though...

An alliance with Nikon would be funny IMO.

Then a compact milc around GR with few quality lenses might be feasable.
Alliance with Leica probably not.
01-25-2018, 05:18 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
As for small compact mirror less, m43 is fine by me but prevents FF option and would impose different sensors, different crops etc. There's Fuji's but then again: no FF.

Alliance with Sony or Canon is pretty much doubtful.

Alliance with Fuji around medium format would be interesting though...

An alliance with Nikon would be funny IMO.

Then a compact milc around GR with few quality lenses might be feasable.
Alliance with Leica probably not.
Large companies like Sony, Canon, Panasonic and Nikon are probably not interested in cooperation with Pentax.
Yes, Richo had GRX, so a mirrorless camera based on GR sounds like something Rocho might think about.
With modified lenses DA15, GR 18mm, DA21, GRX28 / 2.5, DA35 macro, DA40, DA70 and DA20-40 can be used then.
With optional external EVF. It could be very compact in the APS class, like APS DSLR with DA limited is.
01-26-2018, 02:55 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
From a simple technical Pov, I don't believe pancakes are possible with in-lens motors. At least not as compact as 'our' pancakes.
Canon 24mm and 40mm Aps-c pancake lens prove its possible. 😉
01-26-2018, 04:41 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I was asking the question, not advocating - but - would an MILC with a 45.46mm flange focal distance and DA Limited Pancakes reworked with KAF4 and PLM motors be a sales leader? IOW
  1. Is size the singular differentiating benefit of MILC?
  2. How small is ‘small’ when a useful lens is mounted?
  3. How important is the aperture lever (backward compatibility) vs. a KAF4 MILC?
  4. Is the current consumer taste for one or two zooms worth Ignoring for MILC?
I don’t propose any answers, other than I personally believe the ergonomics of current MILC’s are horrible - close to unuseable.
Mirrorless short flange system (can) offer more flexibility and a larger range of products, which is what I believe many users like. In the same system there may be a very compact camera equipped with a pancake lens for a ILC that fit in a jacket pocket and also a larger DSLR sized camera better optimized for large lenses.

It seems you are only looking at smallest possible MILC, and not DSLR sized MILCs like Panasonic G9 that are about the same size as K1. Mirrorless can be smaller than DSLR, but they can be just as large too.

I also believe many users like systems that are optimized for both video and for photography. A system where most lenses are designed for autofocus in video.

Most system based on old SLR mount looks outdated for many new users that are looking to invest in a new system.
Trying to optimize a system both for old SLR users as well as new mirrorless users, that have different priorities are going to be difficult. It may just end up with a bad compromise that is poorly optimized for both types of users.
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01-26-2018, 04:48 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
Canon 24mm and 40mm Aps-c pancake lens prove its possible. 😉
But these are huge compared to 'our limited.
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