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01-28-2017, 01:22 PM   #346
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
Well healed enthusiasts can (and do) purchase new Leica cameras and lenses - because they buy into the brand promise of 'the essence of photography' - perhaps it makes them feel like they are better photographers. Perhaps because they have purchased luxury equipment there is some 'snob' value attached to the purchase as well. If they spent half as much as they do on one new Leica lens on some training they probably would be better photographers - but that is irrelevant, it is how what you purchase makes you feel that is important in todays consumer society.

That is a scary statement to me.

Because feel of purchase, in photography circles, generally does revolve around distinct traditional patterns. And those patterns are generally defined by less is more. And, even, the old design is always the best design.

Look at the Leica MP as example. a 4400 dollar rangefinder (no rear LED screen). It is a 'vintage' mechanical camera with none of the creature comforts of todays cameras at a price only a few will consider.

Even their TL series APS-C mirrorless are incredibly simplistic designs at 1700 dollars. Had they not had 'Leica' on the front, it would sell for half that and be nitpicked into oblivion.

They might feel great in the hands. They might be designed to last decades. But they lack many features and come at a hugely inflated price.

So I would never want the 'photography world' to get into that line of thinking largely. But I don't think that happens so much.. for better or worse, the walmart approach (in the west) is still is champion. And, that is, a feel of getting a lot for ones money. Less appeal of brand names and historical lineage, but on does it solve the task it was made to solve at a lower price?

The crucial point to this is on reliability. Because once we get to the lower end of the price, something has to give.

The market is still broad enough to cater to both views, but I would resist the view that champions brand name and less features over more features and less price. Even if that doesn't, somehow, give me a feeling of riding on a horse above all the 'inferior' subjects. Because I don't care about that nonsense. I don't think many others do as well...

01-28-2017, 01:35 PM - 1 Like   #347
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Leica MP does have a rear LCD screen.
It's the Leica M Edition 60 which doesn't... that, IMHO, is a camera destined to sit on a display case - and be sold, after many years, for a profit. They could forget to put a sensor inside and nobody would find out

However, Pentax makes cameras to be used. A Leica might fit nicely in a display case, but a Pentax will fit nicely in your hands.
(now, please excuse me - I'm going into hiding, some livid Leica fans are looking for me, can't figure why)
01-28-2017, 02:10 PM - 2 Likes   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That is a scary statement to me.
It might not be true, it is just my opinion.

Let us look at some verifiable facts about this though:

Leica M10 $6,595 24MP FF sensor, 5 fps, Wifi, 1 million dot LCD, ISO 100 - 50,000, 2.4MP EVF available for seperate purchase, rangefinder, live view, no video
Pentax K1 $1,819 36MP FF sensor, 4.4fps Wifi, GPS, 1M dot LCD flexible, ISO 100 - 204,800, no EVF, Pentaprism OVF, live view, 1080P video
Pentax KP, $1,099, 24MP APS-C sensor, 7fps, Wifi, 0.9M dot LCD tilts, ISO 100 - 819,200, no EVF, Pentaprism OVF, live view, 1080P video

Objectively, will you get better image quality from the Leica M10 when compared with the Pentax K1 or KP? If I put my Zeiss 28mm on the K1 or KP (a world class lens) or the Pentax 28mm Hollywood, compared with the Leica 28mm (also a word class lens) then the answer would most likely be - they would be different rendering, but you would really be splitting hairs on the IQ. No doubt you could argue forever on this, but really it would be very hard to tell.

So, if the purchase decision isn't about image quality then it will be about the total system, and what appeals to you - how it makes you feel, what you want, and what you like using.

The issue of purchasing Leica instead of Pentax (K1 or KP) certainly isn't going to be about cost because Pentax wins that all year long, and in hard reality it isn't about image quality.

Some would argue it is about the Leica 'look' but then I could buy the Leica Summicon R APO 90mm f2 (arguably the worlds best SLR portrait lens $3,700 on Ebay), a Leitax adaptor, and a K1, still have change over the cost of the M10 body, and achieve the very best of that Leica 'look' if that is important. The same would go for any number of other Leica R lenses.

So, coming back to why people buy Leica over Pentax - total system, high FF IQ, light street camera, and apparently being able to capture that decisive moment like Henri Cartier-Bresson

Could I do all that with a Pentax K1 or KP - theoretically, of course. Except I am no where near the quality of photographer of Cartier-Bresson or Ansel Adams for that matter. So, practically no - not with a Leica, and not with a Pentax or any other photographic equipment for that matter. But that is to do with my skill level and artistic flair, and has nothing to do with the equipment.

Camera companies such as Leica are not in reality selling practicalities - they are selling a myth and a dream. If it makes you feel good, why not, it is a free society.

What I have found amusing in the last few weeks is the Leica reviewers highly praising the new M10 (cost is irrelevant) while here we have had people grizzling about the KP and its high cost. The Pentax KP is arguably a better camera technically than the Leica M10, which costs 6 times as much.

Such is life

Last edited by NZ_Ross; 01-28-2017 at 02:18 PM.
01-28-2017, 03:07 PM   #349
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QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
Camera companies such as Leica are not in reality selling practicalities - they are selling a myth and a dream. If it makes you feel good, why not, it is a free society.

What I have found amusing in the last few weeks is the Leica reviewers highly praising the new M10 (cost is irrelevant), while here we have had people grizzling about the KP and its high cost. The Pentax KP is arguably a better camera technically than the Leica M10, which costs 6 times as much.

Such is life
Yes, the reasons Leica sells is a different reason why Pentax (or Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji) sell.

It is one of the same reasons people buy Lexus over Toyota. Both brands cater to a different buyer with different concerns.

This is why Lecia buyers might find high praise for their latest and greatest (regardless of features and cost of 'competitors') while we have more people concerned about features and cost on the latest Pentax. It isn't as simple as that, though, for reasons explained multiple times now. But the fact does remain these are two different brands for two different buyers.

I'd rather not have the mentality of the Leica buyer slowly infest Pentax where we end up praising products just because its the next in the line with the fancy brand name on it. These are functional, photographic tools we use, not trophy toys to show off.

01-28-2017, 03:08 PM - 1 Like   #350
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Accord Sedan or BMW 5-Series? BMW doesn't (legally) get me there any faster; it doesn't make me a better driver; but onlookers think I am unsuccessful driving the Honda. Of course I could drive the Honda and buy 1000 shares of a $40 stock with the savings and no one would know but my wife . Or I could lease the BMW and drive around showing it off - and sweat the insurance and payment.

The CaNiSony shooters who sneer at my K-1 and old FA Limiteds probably lease their cars, too.
01-28-2017, 03:23 PM   #351
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The CaNiSony shooters who sneer at my K-1 and old FA Limiteds probably lease their cars, too.
Which comes back to the point I was making earlier - Pentax actually delivers very high value for money as a system across bodies and lenses.
01-28-2017, 03:48 PM   #352
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Accord Sedan or BMW 5-Series? BMW doesn't (legally) get me there any faster; it doesn't make me a better driver; but onlookers think I am unsuccessful driving the Honda. Of course I could drive the Honda and buy 1000 shares of a $40 stock with the savings and no one would know but my wife . Or I could lease the BMW and drive around showing it off - and sweat the insurance and payment.

The CaNiSony shooters who sneer at my K-1 and old FA Limiteds probably lease their cars, too.
QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
Which comes back to the point I was making earlier - Pentax actually delivers very high value for money as a system across bodies and lenses.
Bingo. We are all making the same point.
01-28-2017, 03:53 PM   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I don't think many others do as well...
I agree with you on most if not all of your points. This brought back old memories. When I bought my first SLR, a Pentax MX, a "professional" Nikon shooting photographer friend of mine told me to get rid of it and buy a "real" camera. He also worked in a retail camera store and sold various brands. I asked him about Leica and especially their SLR cameras. Who buys this stuff, I asked? They are way too pricy for an average joe like me. He said they were for rich people wanting to show off and pretend that they are hotshot photographers. I did not agree with him then and for most part do not agree with him today. But I always wondered if he had a valid point.

01-28-2017, 03:55 PM   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Leica MP does have a rear LCD screen. It's the Leica M Edition 60 which doesn't... that, IMHO, is a camera destined to sit on a display case
no way,

no screen (less distraction) is good, simple controls, aperture, shutter, iso (you choose exposure parameters) quiet shutter, easy and discreet.
01-28-2017, 03:57 PM - 1 Like   #355
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QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
no way,

no screen (less distraction) is good, simple controls, aperture, shutter, iso (you choose exposure parameters) quiet shutter, easy and discreet.
and so it begins.....
01-28-2017, 04:27 PM   #356
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QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
no way,

no screen (less distraction) is good, simple controls, aperture, shutter, iso (you choose exposure parameters) quiet shutter, easy and discreet.
Too bad there are only 600 photographers in the entire world to appreciate (i.e. pay $16,000) this camera as a proper photographic tool. Are you one of them?
01-28-2017, 04:30 PM - 2 Likes   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Accord Sedan or BMW 5-Series?
I enjoy leaving my Suzuki Swift in amongst the European über-cars in the specialist's carpark
I probably shoot Pentax for the same reason - at least in part.
01-28-2017, 04:32 PM - 1 Like   #358
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Features you don't use get in your way. There's always some kind of overhead associated with features.
01-28-2017, 04:34 PM   #359
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
pay $16,000) . Are you one of them
no, but I like the concept of no screen and simple controls
01-28-2017, 05:42 PM - 1 Like   #360
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The closest encounter that I've had with a digital leica camera was somebody holding it in front of me. As I understood, it doesn't have a preview screen and it's as if you're still on the film days. A lot of people like this thing and if they do and can afford it, then maybe they should have it.
Even if I can afford a leica in the future, I wouldn't get one. Modern technology has made things easy in photography. You can immediately see your photo after you've made your shot and this is something I like.
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