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01-27-2017, 10:43 PM   #46
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Impressive. Actually better than I thought it would be. I have been holding off on a new DSLR for a while now, but this could be it.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 04:50 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
You guys n gals did notice the link at the bottom of each page?
The one that opens the full sized images?
With the exif data intact,...

If this Sensor & Processor came in a body that had decent Video-Out hardware and firmware, I could match the quality of output from a Red One or Red Epic with it at 6400 and 12800.


Yes.
The Sony sensor in the A7s.
Having shot stills and video with one, I would definitely say this is the next generation APSc development of that tech.

The noise in the 102400 photo would be fine in News footage (y'know, if we could get Video out of it via the missing HDMI,..)

The noise at 204800 is about the same as 3200ISO video has on K-01 thru K-3 with all the h264 compression.

---------- Post added 28-01-17 at 03:50 PM ----------


Lolz,... cos the A7s is the 'Video focused' model in the A7 range.
The A7's also get sLog2 and sLog3 and 4K.

The KP looks to be more expensive locally then A7s body-only, but cheaper then the A7s2
More expensive than an A7S? I hope not. Probably more expensive than an A7, but if it's $3k+ for a body i won't be happy.

01-27-2017, 11:58 PM   #47
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Really impressive on the ISO part, I would have to wait to see what they put up to replace K-3II later to decide to buy the KP or not.
01-28-2017, 12:16 AM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
ISO as it applies to digital sensors is sort of a fuzzy concept. There is a collection of standards (five in total) that are not strictly comparable to each other and which are used by the various camera makers. It is enough to say that comparable sensor response and S/N ratio at a given flux for the same ISO is not something you are going to see between brands. Edit: Translation...yes, some makers ISO number are inflated/deflated (Nikon are you listening?).

Here is a brief discussion and enough to make most of us either very confused or fairly disgusted...

Film speed - Wikipedia


Steve
There is no inflating or deflated going on, Japanese manufactures are required to use one of two sensitivity specifications: REI or SOS, both of those specifications are incorporated into iso12232:2006.

Neither of those specifications say nothing about how that sensor is to behave. REI and SOS are both about the brightness of the jepgs produced by the camera. This misconception is cause by Dxo’s use of the term measured iso. This gives the impression that somehow a manufacture is inflating or deflating there iso values under or over the dox measured value. The iso standards specifications allow manufactures to determine different amount of headroom for that iso whereas dxo has decided to allow only stop of headroom and has no bearing on the REI or SOS standard. When people see that a camera uses a setting at iso 100 they believe that standard is something that it isn’t, its only represent the output brightness of the jepg image. It would have been better if DXO used another term other than measured iso as that does not relate to the REI or SOS standards.
01-28-2017, 12:17 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
The noise in the 102400 photo would be fine in News footage (y'know, if we could get Video out of it via the missing HDMI,..)
HDMI Video out is in the SlimPort, you just need a SlimPort to HDMI adapter. The signal is there! A traditional HDMI port was found to be too large so therefore this solution instead.

---------- Post added 01-28-2017 at 08:19 AM ----------

No magic in the sensor it's the PRIME digital processing that has learnt some new trucks, or actually an enhancement and further development of the tricks used by the K70.

01-28-2017, 12:19 AM   #50
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Very impressive, apparently also preserving detail quite well. But if these were RAW shots, then we don't know what post process was used. If they are JPEGs right out of the camera, then indeed very impressive.
01-28-2017, 12:35 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I suspect that most of the improvement comes from the secondary 'Accelerator Unit' graphics processing chip. [Same one is in the K-70]. The KP features page says so too:
So it's mainly a JPEG thing. Be interesting to compare high-ISO RAW's with a K-3.
I made direct comparison of RAWs from K-70 and K-3II. RAWs of K-70 had less noise and more details. I would estimate it as about 0.5-0.7 stops advantage of K-70 over K-3Ii. So this accelerator does very good job even on RAWs. And they claim new generation sensor in KP. So I look forward quite optimistic on KP's low light performans in RAWs too.
01-28-2017, 12:46 AM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Very impressive, apparently also preserving detail quite well. But if these were RAW shots, then we don't know what post process was used. If they are JPEGs right out of the camera, then indeed very impressive.
To me, they look to me like straight-out-of-camera JPEGs as they have that characteristic blotchiness you see with high ISO Pentax JPEGs. I would love to see RAW samples, as I believe we could get considerably better results working on those in Lightroom...
01-28-2017, 01:04 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by newmikey Quote
Wow! Can't really think of another word right now. ISO25600 looks like ISO3200 on my K-5 IIs ...
No. It's the same level like K-70. Just a bit better than K-3II.

01-28-2017, 02:44 AM - 4 Likes   #54
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Just to make sure, I ran the available High-res samples through NeatImage8, set to highest quality and I find ISO12800 delivers top results, ISO25600 is still very usable (at least on on one of the examples with a night scene) with ISO102400 no longer usable in any meaningful way. That is absolutely very impressive! That tells me the structure of the noise lends itself very well to analysis and removal up to a certain point. I'm not in the market right now for a new body but if I were, I would give the K-P some serious consideration.

Literally the only downside to my kind of shooting is the limited battery-life but that can be resolved with a couple of spare batteries in the pocket. Still puzzled about the initial price level the K-P was inserted - it seems to sit in the slot previous top APS-C bodies occupied. What that means for the K-3 II replacement (I saw someone mention 6 months away) I can only guess.

I'll post some crops of those files below:

ISO12800 (left before NI8, right post nr)


ISO25600


EDIT: ISO51200 added

Last edited by newmikey; 01-28-2017 at 09:00 AM.
01-28-2017, 03:56 AM   #55
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I think they look really good for APS-C but maybe not as much ahead of existing cameras as maybe some folks think. I do wonder how much of a difference between the KP and the K3 II will really be visible when you use RAW images. Half a stop, maybe?

There is this impression that sensors have come so much farther, but DXO Mark measured the K5 to have a sports iso of 1200 and the D500 to have a sports iso of 1350 and if you look at the graphs, the D500 is basically exactly the same as the K5 with regard to noise, just a little better with regard to dynamic range in high iso situations. Dynamic range really is the question. You can blast noise away with the right tools, but if the dynamic range is gone, your image isn't going to have good tonality, even as a black and white image. Useful for documentation purposes -- maybe journalism images or family snap shots -- but not a whole lot else.
01-28-2017, 04:03 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I shoot with my K5IIs and do use 51,200 for framing, leveling and focus check when I shoot astro landscapes. 50 miles away from the city - a couple of miles off the main highway at a trailhead parking lot out in the desert, no moon, and can't see your hand in front of your face dark in the middle of no where, you crank up the ISO to 51K shoot for 5 to 6 seconds. I get excellent results to check everything out and then you are ready to go - crank the ISO back down to 1600 and go shooting for keepers.
Very good point. I use very high iso to calculate exposure time when exposure time is beyond 30 sec. with automatic exposure (out of range). Using very high iso in LV mode to find correct exposure, then drop the ISO value and increase exposure of the same amount of stops.
01-28-2017, 04:05 AM   #57
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At higher ISO, I'd say at least a stop - the K-3's sensor was a step back from the K-5's, but the KP (apparently) is a step forward. The K-70 has about a stop over the K-3II.
01-28-2017, 04:53 AM   #58
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Not that I'm getting a KP, but whoever buys this camera first, please post some high ISO JPEG shots without post processing. It would be nice to see the results from one of us.
01-28-2017, 06:18 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by farhagh Quote
No one "want" to shoot at that high ISO. However, there are cases in dim light that your subject moves and you need to use higher shutter speeds. The thing is may be no one though about taking pictures in those situations a couple years ago, and now it's just possible to think about and try that.
This is mostly dependent of the way you approach photography. I got fantastic wildlife picture in Tanzania with K3 and 55-300 and most of the time I was at iso 400-1600. It got out perfectly, you don't see any issue even on a 4K TV or a print.

The cityscape photo shown at the first post could have looked much better with a tripod even taken with a compact camera or a smartphone. Visibly better. It was taken at f/8 too just to show how the high iso. Nobody prevent you to use f/5.6 or maybe even the f/3.5 of the kit lens in low light if you were shooting handled.

Often people approach the thing the hard way: they go for increadbily bad situation and try to get not too terrible photos out of it and are amazed when the new gear make it look a bit less terrible. That's a way to approach it but another way could be simply to put yourself in good conditions to get the shot so you get a great shot. Not just a not too terrible shot. You could have taken the picture with better lighting a down or dusk just at the right moment and it would have looked much better...

What count is the end result. While I agree fully that the incremental improvement we get are quite nice, you need several generation for it to become a game changer. Even K5 against KP, the difference would be mostly JPEG but K20 against KP would be very visbible.

If we get 4-5 time the low light improvement from K3 to KP, then we get a game changer. We should welcome every improvement, for sure, but that doesn't require to change camera more often than every 5-10 years to get the most out of technology. People were all around K70, now KP. Both seems to have basically the same performance for high iso even if of course K1 is far ahead. Don't hold your breath all future APSC camera are going to get at least that or better and price will drop quite soon. This is technology as usual.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-28-2017 at 06:26 AM.
01-28-2017, 07:00 AM - 1 Like   #60
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I want to know if DR is better or same as K-3II.
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