Seven months before the successor of the K3II?

Kunzite · 06-15-2017, 06:27 AM

You're anything but fine with Pentax not being doomed, Ron. OTOH we'll never found out if I'm fine with them being doomed... because for that, it has to happen.

**BigMackCam** · 06-15-2017, 06:30 AM

Folks - let's stay on topic and away from each other's proclivities for positive vs. negative outlook. We all know which of us leans in each direction. Let's leave it at that, please.

Thank you

cfraz · 06-15-2017, 06:54 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by mecrox

nothing Pentax does is really noticed all that much by the broad mass of folks.

I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that.

If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel.

This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram.

aurele · 06-15-2017, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

I am fine with that. What if they are.... How does that make you feel?

i won't feel anything

It's just if the process could be automated it would be faster. Besides that, i'm pretty happy with it too.

cfraz · 06-15-2017, 10:43 AM

I'd say rather that price, not form factor, defines the mass market. It could be a point-and-shoot, a bridge camera, a Rebel or D3xxx DSLR or a cell phone camera.

For photographic intent and usage, they are all functionally equivalent in this market segment. Not because of their capabilities, but because of how they are used. The only reason (some) DSLRs are part of this segment is that they can be made so cheaply.

Canon and Nikon certainly *tried* to make DSLRs the mass market camera by spending millions showing famous people in happy scenes holding their DSLR.

It seemed to work for awhile, but the legions of DSLRs whose kit lens has never come off and mode button permanently in green mode is testament that the mass market was not truely converted.

normhead · 06-15-2017, 10:48 AM

Pentax may in fact turn out to be the first camera company to trust it's success to internet buz and user promotion. Their philosophy seems to be if you produce a good product interested people will find out about it. Easy to do because of the huge respect for Pentax as a legacy company. No matter how small their market share, people want to review their gear. It may in the end turn out to be a more viable strategy than the Canon and Nikon media blitz's with their million dollar price tags.

Originally posted by cfraz

It seemed to work for awhile, but the legions of DSLRs whose kit lens has never come off and mode button permanently in green mode is testament that the mass market was not truely converted.

Every time I have to clean my sensor I wish I was like that.

biz-engineer · 06-15-2017, 11:13 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

Pentax may in fact turn out to be the first camera company to trust it's success to internet buz and user promotion.

They shouldn't, because 9 out of 10 messages is surrealistic criticism of unfounded Pentax problems. One day, I took some pixel shifted shots with the K1, one of them turned out to be out of focus. Reading Pentax forum thread the same of how bad is Pentax K1 AF, and seeing a couple of people selling their K1 in the market place, I was p**sed off. Turned out the K1 AFS was set to FPS prio as I had set this mode once and forgot to reset it to Focus Prio. To be reassured, I did 50 shots in AFS focus prio, and 50/50 were in focus. Most criticism is unfounded, often propagated by some individuals who actually never used what they are talking about, because they repeat what they read somewhere on the web, and they like to have their word for anything and everything.

normhead · 06-15-2017, 11:44 AM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

They shouldn't, because 9 out of 10 messages is surrealistic criticism of unfounded Pentax problems. One day, I took some pixel shifted shots with the K1, one of them turned out to be out of focus. Reading Pentax forum thread the same of how bad is Pentax K1 AF, and seeing a couple of people selling their K1 in the market place, I was p**sed off. Turned out the K1 AFS was set to FPS prio as I had set this mode once and forgot to reset it to Focus Prio. To be reassured, I did 50 shots in AFS focus prio, and 50/50 were in focus. Most criticism is unfounded, often propagated by some individuals who actually never used what they are talking about, because they repeat what they read somewhere on the web, and they like to have their word for anything and everything.

Their biggest shortcoming is on the lack of information they release on how to maximize use of their settings. Leaving marketing to chance is one thing. Not publishing how various settings are supposed to function for a given task is ridiculous. How to make best use of the settings shouldn't be left to chance.

I'm just glad Audiobomber loves to play with his camera and publishes the results of his experiments.

There was a time in my life i would have been all over these things. I'm just not that smart anymore.

mecrox · 06-15-2017, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by cfraz

I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that.

If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel.

This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram.

DSLRs _are_ the broad mass of the market these days. It's where Pentax play, for the most part (MF too of course). Pentax do compete and have no choice about it. Every feature on a new Pentax camera is immediately compared to the competition by one and all. Everyone thinks Pentax is in competition even if Pentax don't. What we all want is a successful company with a special buzz. Otherwise the Ricoh board might decide it's a hobby biz that's just not interesting enough to pursue. Who wants a boring hobby? The buzz of successful is massively powerful. It's one of the drivers of social media, for example. Don't be dull is a key thing here. But for that you do need some marketing.

normhead · 06-15-2017, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by mecrox

DSLRs _are_ the broad mass of the market these days.

Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close.

**clackers** · 06-15-2017, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by cfraz

I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that.

If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel.

This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram.

Great post. (Thumbup)

mecrox · 06-15-2017, 01:24 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close.

Meaning? Camera stores sell cameras, not phones or even bananas. The DSLR is now the main form of full-on camera and is the industry's main generator of the folding stuff. It's crucial to Canon, Nikon and Pentax, at least for now.

normhead · 06-15-2017, 01:53 PM

Meaning when people want images these days they usually turn to their phones. Most people don't even think of buying a camera.

Evie · 06-15-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close.

The main part in this sentence is "according flickr". That means most photos uploaded to this page is taken by iPhone. Nobody says they are good photos, or bad photos, or a simple "noise" to show parties with friends.
Also, it does not say how many cameras owners DO NOT upload their photos there. Lots of uploads from mobile devices because it is easy to do via mobile app. And a lot of more serious photographers simply have dedicated webpages, or do not upload to flickr.

MarkJerling · 06-15-2017, 02:47 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by normhead

Meaning when people want images these days they usually turn to their phones. Most people don't even think of buying a camera.

Until the day where they say "How do I take a photo like that?" and realise that they can't get there with their phone. That's when they enter the DSLR or mirrorless market. The thing is, for most people, they just make do with what they can get out of their phones. You don't need a DSLR for 7,000 selfies.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Successor to K3ii - care to guess when?	Spodeworld	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	178	11-12-2016 01:57 PM
K3II froze up for the third time in 2 months	Amoon	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	25	08-23-2016 02:33 PM
ICC profiles of the K3 & K3II	MyTZuS	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	8	08-09-2015 09:41 AM
Rumor of the successor of the K-m/K2000.	Leo Miyanaga	Pentax News and Rumors	10	09-15-2009 04:47 PM
In the eyes of a seven-year-old	navcom	Photographic Technique	20	08-17-2008 07:42 AM

06-15-2017, 06:27 AM	#361
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	You're anything but fine with Pentax not being doomed, Ron. OTOH we'll never found out if I'm fine with them being doomed... because for that, it has to happen.

06-15-2017, 06:30 AM	#362
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Folks - let's stay on topic and away from each other's proclivities for positive vs. negative outlook. We all know which of us leans in each direction. Let's leave it at that, please. Thank you

06-15-2017, 06:54 AM - 3 Likes	#363
cfraz Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 521	Originally posted by mecrox nothing Pentax does is really noticed all that much by the broad mass of folks. I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that. If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel. This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram.

06-15-2017, 06:55 AM	#364
aurele Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Paris, France Photos: Albums Posts: 3,217	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 I am fine with that. What if they are.... How does that make you feel? i won't feel anything It's just if the process could be automated it would be faster. Besides that, i'm pretty happy with it too.

06-15-2017, 10:43 AM	#365
cfraz Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 521	I'd say rather that price, not form factor, defines the mass market. It could be a point-and-shoot, a bridge camera, a Rebel or D3xxx DSLR or a cell phone camera. For photographic intent and usage, they are all functionally equivalent in this market segment. Not because of their capabilities, but because of how they are used. The only reason (some) DSLRs are part of this segment is that they can be made so cheaply. Canon and Nikon certainly tried to make DSLRs the mass market camera by spending millions showing famous people in happy scenes holding their DSLR. It seemed to work for awhile, but the legions of DSLRs whose kit lens has never come off and mode button permanently in green mode is testament that the mass market was not truely converted.

06-15-2017, 10:48 AM	#366
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Pentax may in fact turn out to be the first camera company to trust it's success to internet buz and user promotion. Their philosophy seems to be if you produce a good product interested people will find out about it. Easy to do because of the huge respect for Pentax as a legacy company. No matter how small their market share, people want to review their gear. It may in the end turn out to be a more viable strategy than the Canon and Nikon media blitz's with their million dollar price tags. Originally posted by cfraz It seemed to work for awhile, but the legions of DSLRs whose kit lens has never come off and mode button permanently in green mode is testament that the mass market was not truely converted. Every time I have to clean my sensor I wish I was like that.

06-15-2017, 11:13 AM - 1 Like	#367
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by normhead Pentax may in fact turn out to be the first camera company to trust it's success to internet buz and user promotion. They shouldn't, because 9 out of 10 messages is surrealistic criticism of unfounded Pentax problems. One day, I took some pixel shifted shots with the K1, one of them turned out to be out of focus. Reading Pentax forum thread the same of how bad is Pentax K1 AF, and seeing a couple of people selling their K1 in the market place, I was p**sed off. Turned out the K1 AFS was set to FPS prio as I had set this mode once and forgot to reset it to Focus Prio. To be reassured, I did 50 shots in AFS focus prio, and 50/50 were in focus. Most criticism is unfounded, often propagated by some individuals who actually never used what they are talking about, because they repeat what they read somewhere on the web, and they like to have their word for anything and everything.

06-15-2017, 11:44 AM - 5 Likes	#368
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by biz-engineer They shouldn't, because 9 out of 10 messages is surrealistic criticism of unfounded Pentax problems. One day, I took some pixel shifted shots with the K1, one of them turned out to be out of focus. Reading Pentax forum thread the same of how bad is Pentax K1 AF, and seeing a couple of people selling their K1 in the market place, I was p**sed off. Turned out the K1 AFS was set to FPS prio as I had set this mode once and forgot to reset it to Focus Prio. To be reassured, I did 50 shots in AFS focus prio, and 50/50 were in focus. Most criticism is unfounded, often propagated by some individuals who actually never used what they are talking about, because they repeat what they read somewhere on the web, and they like to have their word for anything and everything. Their biggest shortcoming is on the lack of information they release on how to maximize use of their settings. Leaving marketing to chance is one thing. Not publishing how various settings are supposed to function for a given task is ridiculous. How to make best use of the settings shouldn't be left to chance. I'm just glad Audiobomber loves to play with his camera and publishes the results of his experiments. There was a time in my life i would have been all over these things. I'm just not that smart anymore.

06-15-2017, 12:56 PM	#369
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by cfraz I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that. If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel. This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram. DSLRs _are_ the broad mass of the market these days. It's where Pentax play, for the most part (MF too of course). Pentax do compete and have no choice about it. Every feature on a new Pentax camera is immediately compared to the competition by one and all. Everyone thinks Pentax is in competition even if Pentax don't. What we all want is a successful company with a special buzz. Otherwise the Ricoh board might decide it's a hobby biz that's just not interesting enough to pursue. Who wants a boring hobby? The buzz of successful is massively powerful. It's one of the drivers of social media, for example. Don't be dull is a key thing here. But for that you do need some marketing.

06-15-2017, 01:01 PM	#370
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by mecrox DSLRs _are_ the broad mass of the market these days. Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close.

06-15-2017, 01:21 PM	#371
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by cfraz I think this is the key source of most all the angst amongst the I-wish-Pentax-would-do-well-but-they-can't-possibly-pull-it-off crowd. Why do some of us seem to insist on equating broad mass-market appeal with achievement of corporate goals? Ricoh Imaging has all but said they are not interested in the Camry / Big Mac sector of the market, and the products they release certainly validate that. If R.I. was to compete there, they would 1) have to have 10 times the buying power and production capacity they have now, 2) need a corporate structure willing to invest tons into marketing and distribution for maybe a decade before they get returns, and 3) 90% of units sold would have to be like Canon Rebels. #1 is a non-starter, #2 just won't happen, based on how Ricoh has managed all it's business units and what has happened in R.I. so far. That leaves #3. I would have (and I dare say, many photography enthusiasts would have) zero interest in a Pentax Rebel. This isn't about mirror / no mirror, either. If no mirrors, the "broad mass of folks" will still buy cameras that are Rebel-like in their marginal build quality, lack of innovation, and absence of features which enthusiasts love but the "broad mass" doesn't appreciate and wouldn't know what to do with even if they were there. In fact much of that feature set is an explicit turn-off to the "broad mass" crowd, because: I don't understand, I don't want to learn, it's too complicated, I don't need that - I just want the camera to take a picture I can upload to facegram. Great post. (Thumbup)

06-15-2017, 01:24 PM - 1 Like	#372
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by normhead Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close. Meaning? Camera stores sell cameras, not phones or even bananas. The DSLR is now the main form of full-on camera and is the industry's main generator of the folding stuff. It's crucial to Canon, Nikon and Pentax, at least for now.

06-15-2017, 01:53 PM	#373
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Meaning when people want images these days they usually turn to their phones. Most people don't even think of buying a camera.

06-15-2017, 02:15 PM	#374
Evie Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 121	Originally posted by normhead Except for the part where the most popular camera on the market is an iPhone according to flickr I believe. DSLRs aren't even close. The main part in this sentence is "according flickr". That means most photos uploaded to this page is taken by iPhone. Nobody says they are good photos, or bad photos, or a simple "noise" to show parties with friends. Also, it does not say how many cameras owners DO NOT upload their photos there. Lots of uploads from mobile devices because it is easy to do via mobile app. And a lot of more serious photographers simply have dedicated webpages, or do not upload to flickr.

06-15-2017, 02:47 PM - 2 Likes	#375
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,406	Originally posted by normhead Meaning when people want images these days they usually turn to their phones. Most people don't even think of buying a camera. Until the day where they say "How do I take a photo like that?" and realise that they can't get there with their phone. That's when they enter the DSLR or mirrorless market. The thing is, for most people, they just make do with what they can get out of their phones. You don't need a DSLR for 7,000 selfies.