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02-09-2017, 11:40 AM - 4 Likes   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobbotron Quote
Noisy sure, slow, on k3 seems fine. I like that it removes one point of failure from the lens.

And by having the AF motor in the camera, every time I upgrade my camera it's like I have new lenses. The difference moving from *ist DL to K10D to K5 was awesome. I never felt screwdriver lenses were slow on my K5.

Apparently the "noise" of the screwdriver bothers some people ... but when I'm at a wedding where a Canon 5D Mk IV or Nikon D5 is firing, I think I'm in a warzone.

---------- Post added 02-09-17 at 01:52 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Offering screwdriven, premium lenses in 2017 is a crime. We are one step above peddling a car with our feet (ala Flintstones). I can only imagine showing someone the current prime lineup for K mount and having to cover for these old relics. It doesn't matter if optically, they're lovely if people can't get their heads around the packaging. Tough sell.
Substitute Leica M for Pentax in your sentence above and see how much sense it makes. Leica sells M lenses because they are regarded as optically excellent and are a fetish object. The Pentax Limiteds appeal to a similar sensibility. I have read dozens of comments in print magazines and online, from random non-Pentax owners, praising the Limiteds and describing their appeal (tiny, gemlike, optically beautiful.) Not once have I seen them dismissed because of their AF drive mechanism. I only see that on Pentax-insider forums.

Which is not to say Pentax couldn't or shouldn't ever release new Limiteds with in-built AF motors. But I fear they will lose much of the appeal -- by growing in girth and no longer being small, gem-like lenses.

02-09-2017, 11:53 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
And here is the main core to my problem. Younger people doesn't want old lenses, corky and nerdy solutions etc. They want something that is fast, easy to use, have good video and looks good. I work with this on a daily basis..So i see this all the time.
A friend of mine got the Canon 650D. it has some limitation, but the touchscreen is really nice, and it's so easy to use ! And even if it's entry-level, it's very fast. And now, guess what, he's going to buy some good lens to go with, because now that the body is really good, he prefer to buy lenses.

See what canon did ? He gets a good new body, then is going for lenses. That's what Pentax need !

And the KP is in the good direction.

Clearly Pentax doesn't invest in video because of the screwdrive noise which is a killer in any shot !
02-09-2017, 12:05 PM   #228
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Who is that? Isn't he a famous wrestler? What does he have to do with this thread?

A gentle reminder...........First Post, line one.
02-09-2017, 12:06 PM - 1 Like   #229
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Interesting discussion.

I really dont think there is that much wrong with Pentax.
They have a really complete crop sensor line up that CaNikon users should envy (if they knew about Pentax's existanse).
The DA* zooms are unique, compact and have very useful focal lengths, but for the love of god their SDM has to go. Once they get retrofitted with modern motors, i think the crop sensor lens line up is top notch.
Of course no one knows this because you cant buy them anywhere in person and Ricoh doesn't advertise them.

I also think we have a worthy full frame line up...once they release everything on the road map. But the clock is ticking. Every day they dont have these lenses available is a day that someone chooses the competition.

I do wish AF was better. But i think it is good enough for the most part.

But Pentax needs to get a decent body in the 300-500 dollar range to hook young customers and have it (along with lenses) where they can touch and hold them and play with them.

02-09-2017, 12:16 PM - 1 Like   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by lukulele Quote
Who is that? Isn't he a famous wrestler? What does he have to do with this thread?

A gentle reminder...........First Post, line one.
I do believe that was a satirical observation that this thread has drifted a wee bit.
02-09-2017, 12:17 PM - 2 Likes   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonlg Quote
I thus don't really get it when people bleat about the lack of Pentax lenses even in full frame unless you're a birder who wants a 400mm f2.8. They already offer full focal length coverage in high quality lenses from 15mm to 560mm so what more do most people realistically need and why? A fisheye of course and perhaps an 85mm f1.4 for commercial portrait shooters and maybe some fast prime telephotos for the birding crowd but beyond that I'm struggling to see what people need.
Jonlg
A lot of the bleating (great word for it!) I read about is how there aren't a bunch of 3rd party lenses for Pentax (which, given that Pentax lenses are so good and so comparably affordable by comparison to CaNikon and especially Sony is a really tone-deaf argument imo. A system shouldn't be judged on the amount of cheap and not-so-cheap crap that's available for it), and where are the specialty lenses that almost no-one owns or uses but can see themselves someday, maybe, possibly wanting. Tilt-shifts, fisheyes, Super-tele Primes, ludicrou$ly fast prime$, etc. The Pentax Limiteds, DFA f2.8 zooms, and the DFA 150-400 covers just about everything a normal user will actually need, but not everything they want and therefore bitch about it online.

Having finally handled a K1, and tried it with the FA 50 f1.4, the new screwdrive motor really is fairly quiet. Not silent, but quiet enough for most uses most of the time. And in most situations where I'd want a silent AF motor, I'd be using one of the new zooms anyway. I personally think it's quiet enough that the only update I'd like to see to the Limiteds is WR, but even that's debatable because again, I'd mostly be using a zoom outside in the rain/snow/sleet/ice fog.

The downside is I also got to handle the 645Z and have started wondering how much kidneys go for nowadays...
02-09-2017, 12:19 PM - 1 Like   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by lukulele Quote
Who is that? Isn't he a famous wrestler? What does he have to do with this thread?

A gentle reminder...........First Post, line one.
Hulk Hogan:

Thom Hogan:
02-09-2017, 12:19 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
And here is the main core to my problem. Younger people doesn't want old lenses, corky and nerdy solutions etc. They want something that is fast, easy to use, have good video and looks good. I work with this on a daily basis..So i see this all the time.
show them pictures of when Pentax was hip - before you were born, admittedly, but you might be able to dig some up

02-09-2017, 12:19 PM - 2 Likes   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
But Pentax needs to get a decent body in the 300-500 dollar range to hook young customers and have it (along with lenses) where they can touch and hold them and play with them.
They already do in the KS2 and if the past is any indication in the K-70 in about a year. Both of these bodies crush the D3X00/Rebel cameras in terms of specs, IQ, etc... but I can't get them at Sam's Club on black Friday.
02-09-2017, 12:52 PM - 2 Likes   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonlg Quote
While I fully accept that at 47 I am part of Pentax existing demographic I would have thought Theta is a big success for them in the youth market as are cameras such as the WG-M2. The issue I guess is the absence of a high quality and sexy travel/compact lightweight camera like an Olympus Pen-f or a Canon M5 or Fuji x100. Something you can take out on a night out with friends or to a day trip hiking without needing to lug a whole system with you but which delivers great pics. That's the kind of camera that appeals to younger people I would have thought.

For SLR's I've never really understood the obsession with prime lenses actually. Even as a teenager in the mid 80's with an ME Super the first lens I bought after the 50mm f1.7 was a Tamron 80-210 f3.8 and later a 24mm Tamron f2.5. If I'd been able to afford the 24-70mm f2.8 or whatever in those days that is what I would have chosen over the 24mm. High quality zooms come incredibly close to the best primes and I suspect are more appealing to the young who favour compactness and flexibility. I'm off to Milan for the weekend and will probably only pack the 24-70mm f2.8 for the K1 or if I want to travel lighter the K3 with Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 because it's so light and good. The truth is that Pentax might well be about to launch a bunch of primes but that is I suspect mostly targeted at their older anorack wearing user base. Even I am far more interested in the 15-30mm f2.8 than any wide angle 24mm f2.0 they might make and I do wonder how many of the people crying out for primes will in reality buy them.

I did buy the 77mm f1.8 but at 800 had to really really think about it even as somebody who does a lot of portraiture! In fact I find myself shooting my 24-70mm on the K1 90% of the time and the 77mm stays on the shelf. Any modern high quality ring motor equipped 24mm f2.0 will likely be as expensive as a 77mm limited and at that price you're well on the way to owning the 24-70mm - far more flexible, optically very good and covers a wide focal range for a weekend in Milan without needing to carry a 24mm, a 35mm, a 50mm and an 85mm.

I thus don't really get it when people bleat about the lack of Pentax lenses even in full frame unless you're a birder who wants a 400mm f2.8. They already offer full focal length coverage in high quality lenses from 15mm to 560mm so what more do most people realistically need and why? A fisheye of course and perhaps an 85mm f1.4 for commercial portrait shooters and maybe some fast prime telephotos for the birding crowd but beyond that I'm struggling to see what people need.

Jonlg
At 47, you and I are exactly the same age, and yet it's apparent our views are worlds apart, (viva la difference!).

I have never understood the obsession with zooms. You claim they are compact and flexible, but I think what
you really mean is convenient. Compact they are not. At 440g, that Tamron 17-50 is heavier than the DA15,
DA35/2.4 and DA50 combined, (436g total). No anorak necessary to do that math. Never one to blame my
tool, I am quite content to frame my shot for the lens attached, or change lenses if necessary and feel that
is MUCH more flexible than constantly lugging around a large, heavy zoom for the sake of convenience. The
lens comes off for a reason, namely to configure the camera to exactly the tool I need for the job. Truth be told,
if I wanted the convenience of a zoom I'd just as soon purchase a fixed lens camera.

DFA 24-70 at 787g? No way.
(D)FA 24/2 at 405g? Better, but still too bulky for my liking.
(DF)A 24/2.8 at 205g? Yes please.

I don't think the zoom/prime divide is equatable to an age divide. I know plenty of old farts who like their big,
heavy, convenient zooms, and a few savvy young whipper snappers who prefer primes, (though they are typically
shooting with Fuji or Sony mirrorless bodies).

>bleat off<
02-09-2017, 01:09 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
And by having the AF motor in the camera, every time I upgrade my camera it's like I have new lenses. The difference moving from *ist DL to K10D to K5 was awesome. I never felt screwdriver lenses were slow on my K5.
Yet you'll be unable to reach higher levels of performance (especially AF-C), even if the camera allows it.
02-09-2017, 01:09 PM   #237
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And the really smart ones shoot with both zooms AND primes, regardless of age, as they see that both have their merits. I love my DA*50-135, I happily replaced my DA21 and DA40 with a HD DA20-40, and I love my two rangefinders with their fixed 35mm f2.8 and 40mm f1.7 lenses respectively. Each for entirely different reasons and purposes, and it certainly doesn't hurt that those two zooms are excellent performers. In some situations the convenience of the zoom trumps switching between a collection of primes every 10-15seconds. Other times the single vision of a good prime allows you to focus on the subject at hand and live closer to the moment.
02-09-2017, 01:10 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
At 47, you and I are exactly the same age, and yet it's apparent our views are worlds apart, (viva la difference!).

I have never understood the obsession with zooms. You claim they are compact and flexible, but I think what
you really mean is convenient. Compact they are not. At 440g, that Tamron 17-50 is heavier than the DA15,
DA35/2.4 and DA50 combined, (436g total). No anorak necessary to do that math. Never one to blame my
tool, I am quite content to frame my shot for the lens attached, or change lenses if necessary and feel that
is MUCH more flexible than constantly lugging around a large, heavy zoom for the sake of convenience. The
lens comes off for a reason, namely to configure the camera to exactly the tool I need for the job. Truth be told,
if I wanted the convenience of a zoom I'd just as soon purchase a fixed lens camera.

DFA 24-70 at 787g? No way.
(D)FA 24/2 at 405g? Better, but still too bulky for my liking.
(DF)A 24/2.8 at 205g? Yes please.

I don't think the zoom/prime divide is equatable to an age divide. I know plenty of old farts who like their big,
heavy, convenient zooms, and a few savvy young whipper snappers who prefer primes, (though they are typically
shooting with Fuji or Sony mirrorless bodies).

>bleat off<
The real issue to me {I'm one of the old guys who learned by experience} is flexibility. The view you get depends on the spot where you stand; the framing you get at a particular spot depends on the focal length of the lens you use. I want to be able to choose both of those. Back in the daze when I had only a 50mm prime lens, I had to "zoom with my feet", which is different from real zooming because view and framing were linked; if I backed up ten feet to change my framing, I was also changing my view, for example. I could carry a whole bag of prime lenses {which would weigh much more than my zoom}, and put them on my camera one at a time until I got the framing I wanted at the view I wanted, but I find it to be much more convenient to zoom with my lens.
02-09-2017, 01:46 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The real issue to me {I'm one of the old guys who learned by experience} is flexibility. The view you get depends on the spot where you stand; the framing you get at a particular spot depends on the focal length of the lens you use. I want to be able to choose both of those. Back in the daze when I had only a 50mm prime lens, I had to "zoom with my feet", which is different from real zooming because view and framing were linked; if I backed up ten feet to change my framing, I was also changing my view, for example. I could carry a whole bag of prime lenses {which would weigh much more than my zoom}, and put them on my camera one at a time until I got the framing I wanted at the view I wanted, but I find it to be much more convenient to zoom with my lens.
Yea, "zoom with your feet" is not really a good thing to teach people. When you do that, you change perspective....thats why head shots with an ultrawide look so aweful, unless you stand 20 feet away and crop away 90% of your pixels.

Ok, that was a digression from the original digression
02-09-2017, 01:56 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
That is why Canon M cameras (with what? 5 lenses total? fastest is F3.5?) outsell the Sony toys (for "the pros" with the "fast lenses"). All without 4k video (). But with touchscreens. Many even without viewfinder.
Who is buying them? I've never even seen one. I see plenty of Sonys. Even a Fuji once in a while.
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