Thom expects a new Pentax camera

**monochrome** · 02-09-2017, 02:05 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by ffking

show them pictures of when Pentax was hip - before you were born, admittedly, but you might be able to dig some up

Uhmmmm . . . . .

You really think this would work?

Attached Images

**lithedreamer** · 02-09-2017, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by aurele

Well, canon 40/2.8 and 24/2.8 are really small with USM motor in it... just sayin'

This is just one review for the Canon 40/2.8, but:

Quote:

It is amazing how small this lens actually is. It is really sharp at 4.0. I have both this and the 50mm STM. The 50mm is allot quieter than this lens. I actually thought there was a problem until I spoke with canon service. They admitted there is not much benefit in sound with the STM in this size lens. Still it performs extremely well. I would say I use this more in bright conditions and the 50mm more inside. They both have their purpose but dont expect it to be as silent as other STM lenses.

So in-lens motor doesn't automatically equal quiet lens. I've owned SDM and DC lenses. They're definitely quieter (at the expense of weight), but I haven't found them to be more faster or more accurate.

mecrox · 02-09-2017, 02:43 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

Yes, many people keep droning on about this 'issue', but I have to disagree. Pentax' APS-C lens lineup is quite
complete. Sure, there are a few specialty lenses missing, like a tilt-shift, but otherwise the whole range is covered
from ultra wide angle to extreme telephoto.

Pentax' only just entered the FF market. You can't expect 20 new lenses to appear overnight. Give it time. New
FF zooms have been released and new primes are on the way. Of course, if you're an old fogy like me, (47), and
not singularly impressed by the latest whizzbang, then the current available FF lineup is also already quite robust.
Everything from ultra wide angle, (15-30), to extreme telephoto, (150-450). The only real 'hole' are the DF-A primes,
which we all expect to be seeing very soon. Diversity is on the way. Give it time.

Given the choice of "Release K-1 as soon as possible" or "Release K-1 only when 8, (9, 10, 11+) new FF lenses
are ready for co-release", which would you choose?

The bigger point here is that Ricoh need to secure their imaging business for the next ten years. To do that, they need a base of new users and different products from those traditionally offered by Pentax. Or at least that is what hints from ambassadors and insiders would seem to suggest. So to a degree this is not about how good Pentax is but that Pentax as a brand can't deliver all that Ricoh want. Pentax is best known for a certain kind of camera for a certain kind of user and the brand comes with a lot of historical baggage which may not go down too well with younger buyers and also with retailers in some parts of the world. So, chances are that the focus and the expenditure may start switching away from Pentax and on to other things. It's hardly a revolution. Pentax overall is having a tough time trying to sell enough stuff to enough people.That's partly tech but partly also the nature of the product and the way it is distributed and marketed. None of this has anything to do with closing down or some End of Days BS. It's just an evolution, I think. After all, Ricoh are already doing it - see the Theta.

Here's an example. Earlier today I was in what is very probably the capital's #1 camera store. They cover every brand, including Leica. Below the glass cabinets on the Pentax stand there is a bench with a podium in the middle for a pride-of-place camera that customers can handle. On it was a rather tatty K3ii with a screwdrive 18-55mm kit lens on the front. Admittedly that is better than two weeks ago when there was a plain K3 with another screwdrive lens, this time the DA 50mm f1.8. It's 2017. That is not a competitive offer considering all the other things that could have been on the podium, like the K1 or a DA 20-40mm. And it also suggests that the Pentax UK folks don't get it and perhaps don't much care. When I was in biz (not photography), a flagship store would never have been allowed to get away with a shoddy display like that. I did not ask the salesman how much Pentax kit the store had sold recently - the last time I asked he wasn't flattering - but a look at that stand told me "not very much". Yes, this is just one anecdote but I've read plenty of similar ones. Ricoh can't run a successful camera division over the next decade on this kind of basis, imho.

reh321 · 02-09-2017, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by lithedreamer

This is just one review for the Canon 40/2.8, but:

So in-lens motor doesn't automatically equal quiet lens. I've owned SDM and DC lenses. They're definitely quieter (at the expense of weight), but I haven't found them to be more faster or more accurate.

Remember that Canon has been using in-lens motors for roughly 30 years now. If I understand correctly, this reviewer is saying that for this particular lens, the new STM isn't any better than the previous variant - which is like concluding that a PLM variant isn't any better than a DC variant.

Kunzite · 02-09-2017, 03:21 PM

This talk about abandoning Pentax... it doesn't make sense, it's not a solution.
Actually I cannot think of one fundamental problem with Pentax; there's marketing and perception, and there are some technical issues like lens line and features in need of improvement. But we're talking about a brand which survived Hoya, and that's no small feat. We know that "Pentax" is working; the issue here is how to improve it, not how to get rid of it. And I strongly believe that Ricoh Imaging is planning to "fix" Pentax.

Besides, every single issue would be present with an imaginary "something else" from Ricoh Imaging(*). Marketing? Check. Perception? Ricoh is not a known consumer brand. AF? 4K? Same. Lenses? Worse.
And maybe the worst of it is marketing and perception... we can see people absolutely convinced that Fujifilm is breaking sales record after sales record, for example

(*) Products like Theta, with little competition, would naturally behave differently than yet-another-MILC.

**ffking** · 02-09-2017, 03:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

Uhmmmm . . . . .

You really think this would work?

works for me

Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes?

jonlg · 02-09-2017, 03:59 PM

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses here and there's lost of good points. Sadly what is also clear is that we all want different things from Pentax. I do think one of the strengths of Pentax is the legacy compatibility and I bet most of the new K1 owners bought it in part because of this even if like me they invested in some of the new full frame zooms to accompany it. The fact though that my (expensive) 12-24mm F4.0 for example works is an attraction to remain within the Pentax system.

It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus. The truth is that is enormously important, not just to birders but also to families wanting to shoot their kids playing football in the back garden. Solving that issue and changing the market perception is important. Equally offering autocus in video is also important for families who want a camera that makes shooting video easy.

Jonlg

**lithedreamer** · 02-09-2017, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by jonlg

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses here and there's lost of good points. Sadly what is also clear is that we all want different things from Pentax. I do think one of the strengths of Pentax is the legacy compatibility and I bet most of the new K1 owners bought it in part because of this even if like me they invested in some of the new full frame zooms to accompany it. The fact though that my (expensive) 12-24mm F4.0 for example works is an attraction to remain within the Pentax system.

It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus. The truth is that is enormously important, not just to birders but also to families wanting to shoot their kids playing football in the back garden. Solving that issue and changing the market perception is important. Equally offering autocus in video is also important for families who want a camera that makes shooting video easy.

Jonlg

Video AF is cool, but it's not what keeps me from shooting video with my Pentax. The main things are just how splotchy (compressed) the video looks like, the lack of real SR, and 4K (I want to film things, often including myself, so the ability to crop to 1080 would be amazing).

**boriscleto** · 02-09-2017, 04:13 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by ffking

works for me

Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes?

**ffking** · 02-09-2017, 04:18 PM

there you go! - cool as it gets! Pentax is HIP!

**clackers** · 02-09-2017, 04:20 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by jonlg

It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus.

That's clearly not right, Jon. I've shot football, cricket, cycling, aircraft and running. Head to the Birds In Flight thread if you like, the Sporting images thread, Beholder's shots of horse racing, the shots of car rallies and car/motorbike racing.

Action photography involves skill. A beginner simply can't buy a 'pro' camera and shoot for Sports Illustrated.

If a soccer mom/dad standing next to me with a Canon or Nikon complained that they can't seem to get any decent shots, I'd say 'Which one's your kid? Give it to me' and take some for them. The AF systems and techniques are very similar between all DSLRs.

Kunzite · 02-09-2017, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by ffking

works for me

Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes?

Do they even know about The Beatles, those... youngsters?

(I'm not kidding... just before reading this, I found myself humming "Hey, Jude")

**monochrome** · 02-09-2017, 04:49 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

Do they even know about The Beatles, those... youngsters?

(I'm not kidding... just before reading this, I found myself humming "Hey, Jude")

I don't see how anyone under 35 would find The Beatles at all relevant except as a curiosity.

I saw The Beatles in 1966 at age 11 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis.
My daughter, age 32, just blogged about seeing The Lumineers at Madison Square Garden.

To her The Beatles would be as is Benny Goodman to me.

mee · 02-09-2017, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

I don't see how anyone under 35 would find The Beatles at all relevant except as a curiosity.

I saw The Beatles in 1966 at age 11 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis.
My daughter, age 32, just blogged about seeing The Lumineers at Madison Square Garden.

To her The Beatles would be as is Benny Goodman to me.

I was thinking something similar.

If one was 20 in 1967, that would be the equivalent back then of someone 70 years of age telling your 20 year old self that Scott Joplin and ragtime music was hip.

50 years difference between both.

**clackers** · 02-09-2017, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by mee

I was thinking something similar.

If one was 20 in 1967, that would be the equivalent back then of someone 70 years of age telling your 20 year old self that Scott Joplin and ragtime music was hip.

50 years difference between both.

Yep.

I'm not sure about celebrity endorsements, anyway.

Did Alicia Keys, John Mayer and the Black Eyed Peas really help Blackberry?

02-09-2017, 02:43 PM - 2 Likes	#243
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd Yes, many people keep droning on about this 'issue', but I have to disagree. Pentax' APS-C lens lineup is quite complete. Sure, there are a few specialty lenses missing, like a tilt-shift, but otherwise the whole range is covered from ultra wide angle to extreme telephoto. Pentax' only just entered the FF market. You can't expect 20 new lenses to appear overnight. Give it time. New FF zooms have been released and new primes are on the way. Of course, if you're an old fogy like me, (47), and not singularly impressed by the latest whizzbang, then the current available FF lineup is also already quite robust. Everything from ultra wide angle, (15-30), to extreme telephoto, (150-450). The only real 'hole' are the DF-A primes, which we all expect to be seeing very soon. Diversity is on the way. Give it time. Given the choice of "Release K-1 as soon as possible" or "Release K-1 only when 8, (9, 10, 11+) new FF lenses are ready for co-release", which would you choose? The bigger point here is that Ricoh need to secure their imaging business for the next ten years. To do that, they need a base of new users and different products from those traditionally offered by Pentax. Or at least that is what hints from ambassadors and insiders would seem to suggest. So to a degree this is not about how good Pentax is but that Pentax as a brand can't deliver all that Ricoh want. Pentax is best known for a certain kind of camera for a certain kind of user and the brand comes with a lot of historical baggage which may not go down too well with younger buyers and also with retailers in some parts of the world. So, chances are that the focus and the expenditure may start switching away from Pentax and on to other things. It's hardly a revolution. Pentax overall is having a tough time trying to sell enough stuff to enough people.That's partly tech but partly also the nature of the product and the way it is distributed and marketed. None of this has anything to do with closing down or some End of Days BS. It's just an evolution, I think. After all, Ricoh are already doing it - see the Theta. Here's an example. Earlier today I was in what is very probably the capital's #1 camera store. They cover every brand, including Leica. Below the glass cabinets on the Pentax stand there is a bench with a podium in the middle for a pride-of-place camera that customers can handle. On it was a rather tatty K3ii with a screwdrive 18-55mm kit lens on the front. Admittedly that is better than two weeks ago when there was a plain K3 with another screwdrive lens, this time the DA 50mm f1.8. It's 2017. That is not a competitive offer considering all the other things that could have been on the podium, like the K1 or a DA 20-40mm. And it also suggests that the Pentax UK folks don't get it and perhaps don't much care. When I was in biz (not photography), a flagship store would never have been allowed to get away with a shoddy display like that. I did not ask the salesman how much Pentax kit the store had sold recently - the last time I asked he wasn't flattering - but a look at that stand told me "not very much". Yes, this is just one anecdote but I've read plenty of similar ones. Ricoh can't run a successful camera division over the next decade on this kind of basis, imho. Last edited by mecrox; 02-09-2017 at 03:51 PM.

02-09-2017, 04:20 PM - 3 Likes	#251
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by jonlg It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus. That's clearly not right, Jon. I've shot football, cricket, cycling, aircraft and running. Head to the Birds In Flight thread if you like, the Sporting images thread, Beholder's shots of horse racing, the shots of car rallies and car/motorbike racing. Action photography involves skill. A beginner simply can't buy a 'pro' camera and shoot for Sports Illustrated. If a soccer mom/dad standing next to me with a Canon or Nikon complained that they can't seem to get any decent shots, I'd say 'Which one's your kid? Give it to me' and take some for them. The AF systems and techniques are very similar between all DSLRs. Last edited by clackers; 02-09-2017 at 05:59 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Thom Hogan's 7 Reason's Shooting a DSLR	fwbigd	General Photography	31	07-16-2016 06:35 AM
Thom Hogan - 4/3 Camera Manufacturers	interested_observer	Photographic Industry and Professionals	14	08-04-2013 02:18 PM
Nobody expects the PENNSYLVANIA INQUISITION!	boriscleto	General Talk	6	03-06-2012 07:40 PM
Thom Hogan likes Pentax lens lineup	Kammerer	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	6	03-02-2011 07:41 AM
Need a new Pentax Camera	smack1019	Photographic Technique	6	07-10-2009 11:32 PM

02-09-2017, 02:05 PM - 1 Like	#241
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ffking show them pictures of when Pentax was hip - before you were born, admittedly, but you might be able to dig some up Uhmmmm . . . . . You really think this would work? Attached Images

02-09-2017, 02:18 PM	#242
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by aurele Well, canon 40/2.8 and 24/2.8 are really small with USM motor in it... just sayin' This is just one review for the Canon 40/2.8, but: Quote: It is amazing how small this lens actually is. It is really sharp at 4.0. I have both this and the 50mm STM. The 50mm is allot quieter than this lens. I actually thought there was a problem until I spoke with canon service. They admitted there is not much benefit in sound with the STM in this size lens. Still it performs extremely well. I would say I use this more in bright conditions and the 50mm more inside. They both have their purpose but dont expect it to be as silent as other STM lenses. So in-lens motor doesn't automatically equal quiet lens. I've owned SDM and DC lenses. They're definitely quieter (at the expense of weight), but I haven't found them to be more faster or more accurate.

02-09-2017, 03:17 PM	#244
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by lithedreamer This is just one review for the Canon 40/2.8, but: So in-lens motor doesn't automatically equal quiet lens. I've owned SDM and DC lenses. They're definitely quieter (at the expense of weight), but I haven't found them to be more faster or more accurate. Remember that Canon has been using in-lens motors for roughly 30 years now. If I understand correctly, this reviewer is saying that for this particular lens, the new STM isn't any better than the previous variant - which is like concluding that a PLM variant isn't any better than a DC variant.

02-09-2017, 03:21 PM	#245
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	This talk about abandoning Pentax... it doesn't make sense, it's not a solution. Actually I cannot think of one fundamental problem with Pentax; there's marketing and perception, and there are some technical issues like lens line and features in need of improvement. But we're talking about a brand which survived Hoya, and that's no small feat. We know that "Pentax" is working; the issue here is how to improve it, not how to get rid of it. And I strongly believe that Ricoh Imaging is planning to "fix" Pentax. Besides, every single issue would be present with an imaginary "something else" from Ricoh Imaging(). Marketing? Check. Perception? Ricoh is not a known consumer brand. AF? 4K? Same. Lenses? Worse. And maybe the worst of it is marketing and perception... we can see people absolutely convinced that Fujifilm is breaking sales record after sales record, for example () Products like Theta, with little competition, would naturally behave differently than yet-another-MILC.

02-09-2017, 03:45 PM - 1 Like	#246
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by monochrome Uhmmmm . . . . . You really think this would work? works for me Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes?

02-09-2017, 03:59 PM	#247
jonlg Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: West Sussex Posts: 128	I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses here and there's lost of good points. Sadly what is also clear is that we all want different things from Pentax. I do think one of the strengths of Pentax is the legacy compatibility and I bet most of the new K1 owners bought it in part because of this even if like me they invested in some of the new full frame zooms to accompany it. The fact though that my (expensive) 12-24mm F4.0 for example works is an attraction to remain within the Pentax system. It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus. The truth is that is enormously important, not just to birders but also to families wanting to shoot their kids playing football in the back garden. Solving that issue and changing the market perception is important. Equally offering autocus in video is also important for families who want a camera that makes shooting video easy. Jonlg

02-09-2017, 04:06 PM	#248
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by jonlg I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses here and there's lost of good points. Sadly what is also clear is that we all want different things from Pentax. I do think one of the strengths of Pentax is the legacy compatibility and I bet most of the new K1 owners bought it in part because of this even if like me they invested in some of the new full frame zooms to accompany it. The fact though that my (expensive) 12-24mm F4.0 for example works is an attraction to remain within the Pentax system. It seems to me that technically Pentax is up there with the very best in all respects (including low light autofocus) but not in moving subject autofocus. The truth is that is enormously important, not just to birders but also to families wanting to shoot their kids playing football in the back garden. Solving that issue and changing the market perception is important. Equally offering autocus in video is also important for families who want a camera that makes shooting video easy. Jonlg Video AF is cool, but it's not what keeps me from shooting video with my Pentax. The main things are just how splotchy (compressed) the video looks like, the lack of real SR, and 4K (I want to film things, often including myself, so the ability to crop to 1080 would be amazing).

02-09-2017, 04:13 PM - 2 Likes	#249
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by ffking works for me Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes?

02-09-2017, 04:18 PM	#250
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	there you go! - cool as it gets! Pentax is HIP!

02-09-2017, 04:40 PM	#252
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ffking works for me Aren't there pictures of the Beatles and Bailey etc using Pentaxes? Do they even know about The Beatles, those... youngsters? (I'm not kidding... just before reading this, I found myself humming "Hey, Jude")

02-09-2017, 04:49 PM - 1 Like	#253
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Kunzite Do they even know about The Beatles, those... youngsters? (I'm not kidding... just before reading this, I found myself humming "Hey, Jude") I don't see how anyone under 35 would find The Beatles at all relevant except as a curiosity. I saw The Beatles in 1966 at age 11 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis. My daughter, age 32, just blogged about seeing The Lumineers at Madison Square Garden. To her The Beatles would be as is Benny Goodman to me.

02-09-2017, 05:00 PM	#254
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by monochrome I don't see how anyone under 35 would find The Beatles at all relevant except as a curiosity. I saw The Beatles in 1966 at age 11 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis. My daughter, age 32, just blogged about seeing The Lumineers at Madison Square Garden. To her The Beatles would be as is Benny Goodman to me. I was thinking something similar. If one was 20 in 1967, that would be the equivalent back then of someone 70 years of age telling your 20 year old self that Scott Joplin and ragtime music was hip. 50 years difference between both.

02-09-2017, 05:20 PM	#255
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by mee I was thinking something similar. If one was 20 in 1967, that would be the equivalent back then of someone 70 years of age telling your 20 year old self that Scott Joplin and ragtime music was hip. 50 years difference between both. Yep. I'm not sure about celebrity endorsements, anyway. Did Alicia Keys, John Mayer and the Black Eyed Peas really help Blackberry?