[mee]

I apologize. I'm not intending to attack you. It is just that your perception of Pentax's current line up and mine are world's apart. That probably tempers our views of the future of the company considerably.

No worries.

And I think you're quite right... our view of what is there does alter our overarching view.

I see Canon having (arguably) the best lens collection around. Expensive. But very nice and thorough in focal ranges and apertures. Yet their bodies are near the bottom for me.

I see Pentax having (again all arguable) some of the best DSLR bodies around. Yet their newer, FF lens lineup is spotty for me.

This isn't helped by the fact that both large 3rd party lens manufacturers (Tamron and Sigma) are purposely shying away from K mount at the moment.

It is as if no one company can get their act together and offer the lenses AND the bodies together. Nikon is is almost there, but 3rd party is somewhat better due to price differences. And, if one believes the discussion, they are leaking money like a sieve.

Pentax seems to lumber along slowly.. A camera here.. and lens or two there.. meanwhile second hand is offering a lot of bang for the buck these days in other systems.

It is a complicated situation for me. But I don't see Pentax going anywhere in the near future (I feel like I just said that.. haha).

[reh321]

.....
I see Canon having (arguably) the best lens collection around. Expensive. But very nice and thorough in focal ranges and apertures. Yet their bodies are near the bottom for me.
I see Pentax having (again all arguable) some of the best DSLR bodies around. Yet their newer, FF lens lineup is spotty for me.

You and I totally agree at this point - except I would delete the "arguably" comments. My budget has never had room for pricey equipment, but I feel that your analysis is as true at the lower end of the lines as it is at the upper. I was a Pentax user 1979-95, but moved to Canon because of their EF-mount lenses. By 2015, I still felt that Canon lenses were the best, but I came back to Pentax because of their bodies.

This isn't helped by the fact that both large 3rd party lens manufacturers (Tamron and Sigma) are purposely shying away from K mount at the moment.

It is Pentax seems to lumber along slowly.. A camera here.. and lens or two there.. meanwhile second hand is offering a lot of bang for the buck these days in other systems.
It is a complicated situation for me. But I don't see Pentax going anywhere in the near future...

This is where we totally disagree. I believe the new KAF4-mount brings Pentax into virtual parity with Canon's EF-mount. For reasons of history, Canon will continue to have a superior collection of lenses, but there is now no technological reason for Pentax to continue trailing Canon in new developments. I believe the K-1 will be Pentax's landscape camera of the future, freeing the APS-C line to be redirected to events/sports/wildlife; the K-70 and KP give me hope that these cameras will become increasingly competitive in these areas, especially at the lower end of the line - the big issue for amateurs taking pictures of indoor sports has been the cost of constant wide-aperture lenses, so cameras systems such as K-70 + new 55-300 PLM lens are pointing in exactly the right direction IMHO, as higher useable ISO settings from affordable bodies largely eliminates the need for expensive lenses. In the U.S., amateurs wanting to take pictures of daughters/sons/etc participating in indoor sports greatly outnumber professionals taking pictures of indoor sports, so I'm not very concerned about whether Pentax can ever get attention of those who already have so much invested in big expensive white lenses.

Not really. The FF system does have holes in the lineup and is outdated in motor type (screw driven). And I've also said the crop system is quite nice. Both of these are true statements. Neither are hardly pessimistic. Unless honesty is pessimism around here now.

The problem here is that these words ignore trajectory. Pentax is freaking out some by leaving the screw-drive behind, but I believe they will do it, and that leaves their next twenty years looking much better than their past twenty years.

[monochrome]

^^ I think many of us will have to accept that universal backwards compatibility has become an albatross. I would not be surprised to see very soon that an in-body screwdrive AF Motor is a premium feature offered only on high-end bodies.

[lithedreamer]

^^ I think many of us will have to accept that universal backwards compatibility has become an albatross. I would not be surprised to see very soon that an in-body screwdrive AF Motor is a premium feature offered only on high-end bodies.

As long as they don't get rid of it. If they did, I'd be tempted to jump ship (turning half of my lenses into manual focus ones means I have less to lose).

[mee]

You and I totally agree at this point - except I would delete the "arguably" comments. My budget has never had room for pricey equipment, but I feel that your analysis is as true at the lower end of the lines as it is at the upper. I was a Pentax user 1979-95, but moved to Canon because of their EF-mount lenses. By 2015, I still felt that Canon lenses were the best, but I came back to Pentax because of their bodies.

This is where we totally disagree. I believe the new KAF4-mount brings Pentax into virtual parity with Canon's EF-mount. For reasons of history, Canon will continue to have a superior collection of lenses, but there is now no technological reason for Pentax to continue trailing Canon in new developments. I believe the K-1 will be Pentax's landscape camera of the future, freeing the APS-C line to be redirected to events/sports/wildlife; the K-70 and KP give me hope that these cameras will become increasingly competitive in these areas, especially at the lower end of the line - the big issue for amateurs taking pictures of indoor sports has been the cost of constant wide-aperture lenses, so cameras systems such as K-70 + new 55-300 PLM lens are pointing in exactly the right direction IMHO, as higher useable ISO settings from affordable bodies largely eliminates the need for expensive lenses. In the U.S., amateurs wanting to take pictures of daughters/sons/etc participating in indoor sports greatly outnumber professionals taking pictures of indoor sports, so I'm not very concerned about whether Pentax can ever get attention of those who already have so much invested in big expensive white lenses.


The problem here is that these words ignore trajectory. Pentax is freaking out some by leaving the screw-drive behind, but I believe they will do it, and that leaves their next twenty years looking much better than their past twenty years.

I find all your points valid and reasonable. And I appreciate we can discuss pluses AND minuses without beating each other over the head.

I would like to focus on one point, specifically... the potential for Ricoh to currently be in the process of shifting the different platforms around with respect to targeting different photography types based on sensor size. That is very interesting. Perhaps we are really in the middle of a transition (be it as you put it or even a different one) with K mount. It is hard for us to see the big picture when we're simply specks in the picture.

Before KP was announced, I was (and had been for over a year) waiting for a really nice K-3 II successor. After KP, I started weighing my options when it was initially reported (DPR and Adorama) that KP was it. Through the brief panic, I looked around at the other systems a bit more openly. And became in the process of strongly considering a move from crop to FF. There are many options out there! I've gone from almost buying a D750 to almost buying a K-1 to (very briefly) eyeballing a 5dIII and even an A7r. All in the space of the past two weeks.

I have a buddy locally (who introduced me to Pentax ironically) that is into Canon crop and is himself looking to move to FF. We discussed this recently and both agree the Canon bodies aren't that hot in several aspects. But I wouldn't have any reservation using them if I was into portraiture or weddings. However, I'm not... as I'm into nature and landscape work, with a bit of event photography here and there. Pentax has given me (with the crop system) enough to get by nicely with it and really been geared more towards the landscape/nature side which I love.

I let him handle one of my Pentax bodies once and he was amazed at how good it felt in hand... not plasticky or toy-like. But feels like a serious photographic tool. Pentax has that in spades.

What they don't currently have are lot of modern style lenses (in terms of motor and coatings). I really do hope KAF4 is the start of a turn into that direction of revamping their lens lineup. I can understand if one is comfortable with the vintage lenses, how useless this might seem. But I see this often in comments 'The K-1 seems great but where is _________' insert the blank with a lens common in EF or F mount. Where are the STM lenses... where is the 50 1.2... where are the f/4 zooms... etc.

Plus it seems crazy to me not to have WR or AW seals on all of your primes (esp the limiteds).

No, Pentax will never please everyone. I'm not in some crazy dream that they would ever or would even try to. But, perhaps (and hopefully), you're right in this is the start of Ricoh 'rebuilding' (modernizing) K mount in general and playing to their strengths.

The problem is time. I don't expect change overnight, but it does seem Ricoh are dragging their heels (in my mind) when it comes to modernization. I could just be impatient though. It has been said a few times before, but I really agree with the view that we will see how Ricoh envisions K mount as a result of their actions this year. Starting at CP+ all the way through to the end of the year.

As a result, I've kind of taken my foot off the go pedal towards FF and am going to wait until summer/autumn to see how the picture shapes up. That is, unless the right deal comes along and is one I cannot refuse.

[bobbotron]

I think it's rich to say you couldn't build a very useful and great system from the existing pentax full frame lens, screw drive works great, the limiteds are very nice.

[boriscleto]

Where is all the PentaxIsDoomedTM talk coming from all of a sudden?

I don't know. It's almost all in my ignore list...

[boriscleto]

^^ I think many of us will have to accept that universal backwards compatibility has become an albatross. I would not be surprised to see very soon that an in-body screwdrive AF Motor is a premium feature offered only on high-end bodies.

Why would Ricoh abandon one of the few things that distinguishes them from Nikon? I would not have bought a Pentax 8 years ago if Nikon had better backwards compatibility on the lowend bodies.

[pinholecam]

Wow!
Nice, all Thom did was conjure up something and the Pentaxians are already at each other's throats.
I bet he's lurking here somewhere enjoying this with a bag of popcorn.

[Zygonyx]

"Usually CP+ is a cat and mouse game where the companies that feel they are the strongest (or ironically the weakest) push their announcements right up to the last minute in order to make a splash at the show (or hide the announcement in the show buzz for the weak announcements)."
Dixit T.Hogan.

But i can't remember to which CP+ such a rule applied to Pentax.... ah yes, maybe 2012 for K-01, and last year for K-1 : so this could happen again in CP+ 2020

[skierd]

We've gotten way off base here, but I'd like to interject a few thoughts...

One, I hope Thom is correct and that we'll see a new top end APS-C camera to replace the K3ii. If the KP and K-70 are any indication of what's to come we'll have a very nice crop flagship on our hands by Christmas if the rumor is true.

Second, I think anyone who views a digital camera system in the same never-ending "glass is forever" light as a film system, especially with lenses, is sorely misleading themselves. Cameras and even lenses are computers... computers that go obsolete, get replaced by newer "better" systems, and eventually wear out when the circuitry goes or firmware stops being updated and the raw files stop being supported. I don't think we'll br shooting the same lenses in 20 years that we are today, despite their cost up front, because as they are electronic they are inherently disposable.

A good example is my Apple Watch I got for Christmas. I like it, a lot actually, but despite its price tag I have no illusions that it'll be running or even able to communicate with the iPhone 20 or whatever comes along in what most people would consider a reasonable lifespan for a $300+ watch.

Buy the tools you need for your vision or your work, stop worrying about the brand of optical computer you've sunk a bunch of money in to and move forward to something that works for your needs. Adjust, invest, and change as necessary. In 20 years, you'll care more about the images you took more than the equipment you used... probably.

[Zygonyx]

Just my conclusion : like any crowd on the internet, most of them selfdeclared "experts", Mr Hogan has no clue of what he has written.
Not even any mention to Pentax KP on his blog, he musn't be aware of its announcement....

[Scintilla]

I think anyone who views a digital camera system in the same never-ending "glass is forever" light as a film system, especially with lenses, is sorely misleading themselves. Cameras and even lenses are computers... computers that go obsolete, get replaced by newer "better" systems, and eventually wear out when the circuitry goes or firmware stops being updated and the raw files stop being supported. I don't think we'll br shooting the same lenses in 20 years that we are today, despite their cost up front, because as they are electronic they are inherently disposable.

Which was one big reason why I was attracted to Pentax in the first place -- as, say, the FA Limiteds will still be usable and reparable in 20 years regardless of what happens to K-mount cameras, even if manual focus only -- and why I've only bought one autofocus lens since my Pentax selloff, namely, the Tamron A09 (and, indeed, why I went Canon instead of Nikon for FF, to be able to keep using Contax/M42/other lenses with glassless adapters).

[bobbotron]

I don't think Moores law applies so readily to optical glass.

We've gotten way off base here, but I'd like to interject a few thoughts...

One, I hope Thom is correct and that we'll see a new top end APS-C camera to replace the K3ii. If the KP and K-70 are any indication of what's to come we'll have a very nice crop flagship on our hands by Christmas if the rumor is true.

Second, I think anyone who views a digital camera system in the same never-ending "glass is forever" light as a film system, especially with lenses, is sorely misleading themselves. Cameras and even lenses are computers... computers that go obsolete, get replaced by newer "better" systems, and eventually wear out when the circuitry goes or firmware stops being updated and the raw files stop being supported. I don't think we'll br shooting the same lenses in 20 years that we are today, despite their cost up front, because as they are electronic they are inherently disposable.

A good example is my Apple Watch I got for Christmas. I like it, a lot actually, but despite its price tag I have no illusions that it'll be running or even able to communicate with the iPhone 20 or whatever comes along in what most people would consider a reasonable lifespan for a $300+ watch.

Buy the tools you need for your vision or your work, stop worrying about the brand of optical computer you've sunk a bunch of money in to and move forward to something that works for your needs. Adjust, invest, and change as necessary. In 20 years, you'll care more about the images you took more than the equipment you used... probably.

[kenspo]

I wont even say anything about what this Thom claim to know!

But i have to rant about Pentax biggest problem: The users (not all, but many). The long time users want new cameras, but they want Pentax to keep them in the past, making it harder for Pentax to get in the future. They want to be able to use their old glass, be quirky and nerdy. Im struggling every day to get new and young users to get over to Pentax. But its a hard task..Because the things said above, doesn't attract the younger and moneystrong generation at all..It even scares some of them away. Why do you think Olympus, Sony, Fuji etc attracts so much new photographers? They do the opposite of Pentax. If you want Pentax to grow bigger, catch up with the big ones and attract new and young photographers, the solution is to bury the past and look ahead into the future. I know Pentax is sentimental for many, but most people wants the newest and the best, because for them it is a tool. Even the french saw that at the end with their Peugeot and Citröen. Now they make state of the art cars for the future and they are rising.

That said, Pentax is trying to please everyone..But its hard to move forward when you one foot in the past and try to put the other one in the future.

And dont get me wrong..I love K-1 and the new lenses..But my main job is to attract new users..and THAT is not an easy task...