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02-12-2017, 08:22 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Here some comparison images, 3200 D750 on left, 1600 ISO K-3 (same DoF)
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
My guess is in a 20x30 inch print, you can't see the difference.
This is what i was answering on. Nothing about K-3 and ISO640

02-12-2017, 08:29 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
That's why I compared the two at ISO 6,400, which is a pretty relevant value for low-light work, and definitely not cherry picking.
I usually don't use high iso in low light, I use a tripod and low iso. High iso, I need it for sports and long lenses because I need to increase my shutter speed to freeze motion and avoid bllur due to lens shake and shutter vibration. If I don't have fast moving subjects, I can use a tripod hence no need for clean high iso.
02-12-2017, 09:23 AM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I usually don't use high iso in low light, I use a tripod and low iso. High iso, I need it for sports and long lenses because I need to increase my shutter speed to freeze motion and avoid bllur due to lens shake and shutter vibration. If I don't have fast moving subjects, I can use a tripod hence no need for clean high iso.
Tripods don't work with documentary photography, street, sports, wildlife, in nightclubs and bars, portraiture ... Basically everything that involves moving, living beings, which is the majority of photography for most people.
02-12-2017, 09:33 AM - 1 Like   #49
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I don't understand the arguments that crop sensors provide better performance than full frame.

It is similar to arguing 2 is more than 3.

02-12-2017, 09:54 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I don't understand the arguments that crop sensors provide better performance than full frame.

It is similar to arguing 2 is more than 3.
Some people have been APS-C apologists for so long they can't help it.
02-12-2017, 10:14 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I don't understand the arguments that crop sensors provide better performance than full frame.

It is similar to arguing 2 is more than 3.
As far as the basic physics of gathering light are concerned, full frame truly is better than APS-C.

But if one also adds what has to happen after the shutter closes, the situation may be flipped -- with APS-C being better than FF. Larger sensors are harder to manufacture and pose greater electrical engineering problems with: the speeds of signals on the larger chip, the accuracy of the signal measurements, noise, and power. Whether the superiority of FF light collection can overcome the inferiority of FF electrical performance is not obvious.

At the very least, the evolution of technology and the specific design choices made for each sensor imply that some APS-C sensors (and cameras) might be better than some other FF sensors (and cameras).
02-12-2017, 10:56 AM   #52
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2 million is more than 3 thousand
02-12-2017, 11:20 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Tripods don't work with documentary photography, street, sports, wildlife, in nightclubs and bars, portraiture ... Basically everything that involves moving, living beings, which is the majority of photography for most people.
oh yeah , for sure, but you don't need 1/1000 shutter speed for portraits, I suppose. Shooting indoors, bars , stuff like this I remember that I needed something like f2.8 or faster to keep ISO within a clean range on the K3, in that case, having lower sensor noise would help.

---------- Post added 12-02-17 at 19:41 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
But if one also adds what has to happen after the shutter closes, the situation may be flipped -- with APS-C being better than FF. Larger sensors are harder to manufacture and pose greater electrical engineering problems with: the speeds of signals on the larger chip, the accuracy of the signal measurements, noise, and power. Whether the superiority of FF light collection can overcome the inferiority of FF electrical performance is not obvious.
Yes, those are things to consider. I'd add, Fab process characteristics are independent from the size of the chip, that means, even is the pixel gets larger, the clipping point depending on semiconductor material and structure is the same regardless of the size of the sensor. So, if you can get 14 bits on a crop sensor, you get the same clipping level on the larger sensor, the only improvement is the S/N thank to noise being integrated in a larger cap., the other part of the noise (read noise) stays the same. Multiframe stacking partially cancel out read noise, here is some benefit of stacking (or even better: pixel shifting). I still wonder why Ricoh did not implement a optional ISO50 or ISO25 mode that would actually be done via seamless software stacking mode (Sony have done this for when shooting in low light without a tripod... unless the "accelerator unit" is doing the same).


Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-12-2017 at 11:47 AM.
02-12-2017, 12:45 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote


Yes, those are things to consider. I'd add, Fab process characteristics are independent from the size of the chip, that means, even is the pixel gets larger, the clipping point depending on semiconductor material and structure is the same regardless of the size of the sensor. So, if you can get 14 bits on a crop sensor, you get the same clipping level on the larger sensor, the only improvement is the S/N thank to noise being integrated in a larger cap., the other part of the noise (read noise) stays the same. Multiframe stacking partially cancel out read noise, here is some benefit of stacking (or even better: pixel shifting). I still wonder why Ricoh did not implement a optional ISO50 or ISO25 mode that would actually be done via seamless software stacking mode (Sony have done this for when shooting in low light without a tripod... unless the "accelerator unit" is doing the same).
Yes, bigger pixels are better pixels from a photon collecting standpoint. And, yes, some parts of the read noise can be the same.

What does get worse for FF (vs. APS-C) are the RC time-constant issues created by the longer traces between the pixels and the edge of the sensor which affects the ability to drive clock & control signals across the large chip and affects either the accuracy of the read-out or the time-delay in the getting an accurate measurement. Either the capacitance or the resistance (or both) increase which slows the signal, increases the required power for running the chip, and either forces the designer to accept measurement accuracy or read-out rate compromises. Also, longer traces increase issues with cross-talk/EMI/RFI which might be further exacerbated by needing higher power levels to drive clock & control signals across the chip so that there's more electronic noise to each pixel measurement.
02-12-2017, 01:36 PM   #55
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It is still astonishing result for Pentax Kp. WEll done. I think same senzor will use Ricoh for GR III
02-12-2017, 01:55 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I don't understand the arguments that crop sensors provide better performance than full frame.

It is similar to arguing 2 is more than 3.
No, it is more like noticing that 2.9 and 3.0 with an error margin of +-0.2 might sometimes be quite close.
02-12-2017, 02:07 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I don't understand the arguments that crop sensors provide better performance than full frame.

It is similar to arguing 2 is more than 3.
Much depends on generation of sensor and what it is designed for. A D7200 scores 87 on DXO Mark's scale, while the D5 scores 88. If you look closer, you find that the D7200 actually beats the D5 very handly in base iso dynamic range and has similar dynamic range performance up to iso 1600, where it begins to fall behind the D5. In SNR the D5, of course, handly beats the D7200 at all isos.

That said, there are plenty of photographers who would prefer the D7200 performance to that of the D5 -- if you aren't a machine gun type photographer who needs high frame rates and shoot a lot of landscape, the D7200 will probably produce better results.
02-12-2017, 02:28 PM   #58
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Comparing the KP to the K-70 at 51200 I don't see a difference. Left is KP

02-12-2017, 02:35 PM - 3 Likes   #59
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Be happy with the camera you have , forget the one you don't have, it's irrelevant. Your DSLR is better than 99,9% of any other camera of the world because all of these are phone camera or p&s.
02-12-2017, 03:37 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Comparing the KP to the K-70 at 51200 I don't see a difference. Left is KP
I see a difference (look at the white between the bottles and at the sorceress). KP is above current pentax APS-C, above 80D, probably very similar to D7200. Pentax did a choice to show a lot of details but some luminance noise (chroma noise is almost invisible at decent iso). This choice gives a film-grain look to high iso and is probably a good thing for real photo usage. That was already there on K1 and I think it was the meaning of the communication from Pentax on the K1 site about optimizing high iso for human sensibility and to keep texture more than just for numerical assessment. ( Challengers | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING )

It's of course behind any current FF in IQ but it's a great compact APS-C camera with a nice style perfect addition to the DA limited for a classy travel kit. I don't need such a camera but I could clearly recommend it to someone who looks for a good aps-c.

Last edited by Glorfindelrb; 02-12-2017 at 03:56 PM.
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