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02-16-2017, 12:42 PM   #61
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FF is also for larger OVF and again not needed on a GR.

02-16-2017, 01:36 PM   #62
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There's no doubt that the GR has a dedicated following, but you have to wonder what the addition of a larger sensor would do to make it sufficiently appealing, either to a new group of buyers or to sufficient numbers of upgrading existing users.

At present, the limitations of the APS-C version are not enough to weigh against its advantages for buyers. Adding a larger sensor can be done without too much change to the overall package size or weight, but to do so will possibly require a smaller aperture lens, users will have to accept a shorter battery life and there will be no additional features like an EVF or SR. Given these limitations and that the purchase cost will be significantly higher, the improvement in IQ would have to be spectacular to make it sufficiently appealing.

I think it's possible to market a mirrorless fixed-lens single focus Ricoh with a 35mm sensor, but I doubt it will be a new version of the GR. More likely, it would be larger, heavier package with a very fast lens, a bigger battery and an EVF (maybe even an OVF), but it would have to be very attractively priced to sell it in the current marketplace, where its main rivals would be the Fuji X100F and the Leica Q. It's possible, but even so, I wouldn't bet on it.
02-16-2017, 03:43 PM - 2 Likes   #63
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One major appeal to the GR is price. APS-C keeps the price down. The next GR will most likely have the 24mp version.

There are different options from which Ricoh can choose. Samsung has made a very excellent 28mp BSI cmos sensor. Being able to license Sigma's Foveon sensor would add a certain edge. The Foveon sensor delivers Pixel Shift sharpness without the need for SR.

Pentax needs to develop a complement 40mm FOV APS-C compact to go with the GR. Maybe the FF compact could be that camera.
02-16-2017, 03:54 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
One major appeal to the GR is price. APS-C keeps the price down. The next GR will most likely have the 24mp version.

There are different options from which Ricoh can choose. Samsung has made a very excellent 28mp BSI cmos sensor. Being able to license Sigma's Foveon sensor would add a certain edge. The Foveon sensor delivers Pixel Shift sharpness without the need for SR.

Pentax needs to develop a complement 40mm FOV APS-C compact to go with the GR. Maybe the FF compact could be that camera.
Agree about the APSC price. Foveon... is great at lower ISO, but Bayer arrays generally are way better (I think?) in low light, so it's not a totally easy choice, one over the other.

02-16-2017, 09:34 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobbotron Quote
Agree about the APSC price. Foveon... is great at lower ISO, but Bayer arrays generally are way better (I think?) in low light, so it's not a totally easy choice, one over the other.
The Foveon sensor would bring a different dynamic. It doesn't perform as well at high ISO but the Foveon files do translate beautifully to monochrome which can play a role in low light photography.

The Samsung 28mp BSI sensor should be considered seriously. Pentax worked with Samsung in the past. I could see Ricoh going with the Samsung BSI sensor combined with a Samsung OLED screen for the next GR.
02-17-2017, 02:54 AM - 2 Likes   #66
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Why Foveon? GR monochrome (ie. with sensor without Bayer mask) would be great!
02-17-2017, 04:10 AM - 3 Likes   #67
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I doubt Ricoh will deviate from what makes the GR successful in the first place - APS-C compactness and competitive price point. The simple fact is that for an enthusiast photographer looking for a premium compact, the GR is the most attractive option. Looking at the Fuji X100 and the Sony RX1, the price is just too much of a turn off - anyone who knows their equipment knows that they could get a fantastic second body or an incredibly advanced lens for that money. The GR is expensive enough to be 'premium', but attractively priced enough to be tempting - in real life, I've seen a lot more GRs being used out in the world and online. It has a conventional APS-C sensor, wide angle lens and an ergonomic design with double control wheels - there is a GR template, and that's an important part of its image and why people come back for more. Changing any of this would jeopardise its place in the market, and with the market being what it is, Ricoh will not want to do that. We know from the very limited market that the Sigma compacts hold (although they are cool cameras) that Foveon is not what everyone wants, and I get the feeling that anyone wealthy enough to decide that they could have another camera just for monochrome images would go with Leica so they could use a variety of lenses.

I think there will be a few changes - I'd bet on a new sensor, a tilting screen (something I'd be happy about, having used the wonderfully slim one on my GF7), and last in the running would be a finder, but there is a chance that might come if Ricoh have decided to pull out a few stops.
02-17-2017, 05:00 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by edmundrt Quote
I doubt Ricoh will deviate from what makes the GR successful in the first place - APS-C compactness and competitive price point. The simple fact is that for an enthusiast photographer looking for a premium compact, the GR is the most attractive option. Looking at the Fuji X100 and the Sony RX1, the price is just too much of a turn off - anyone who knows their equipment knows that they could get a fantastic second body or an incredibly advanced lens for that money. The GR is expensive enough to be 'premium', but attractively priced enough to be tempting - in real life, I've seen a lot more GRs being used out in the world and online. It has a conventional APS-C sensor, wide angle lens and an ergonomic design with double control wheels - there is a GR template, and that's an important part of its image and why people come back for more. Changing any of this would jeopardise its place in the market, and with the market being what it is, Ricoh will not want to do that. We know from the very limited market that the Sigma compacts hold (although they are cool cameras) that Foveon is not what everyone wants, and I get the feeling that anyone wealthy enough to decide that they could have another camera just for monochrome images would go with Leica so they could use a variety of lenses.

I think there will be a few changes - I'd bet on a new sensor, a tilting screen (something I'd be happy about, having used the wonderfully slim one on my GF7), and last in the running would be a finder, but there is a chance that might come if Ricoh have decided to pull out a few stops.
Yes, that all sounds bang on. I guess one consideration is how much the market and people's tastes have changed since the GR was first released - in those heady long-ago days of 2013, lol. Ricoh must have researched that one pretty carefully.

If Ricoh do include an EVF, which would be a departure from the formula, then I think it will indicate that the whole group is ramping up to get serious about more mirrorless cameras.

I can't see any merit in using a Foveon sensor. It comes with huge practical downsides, and lots of the market would then say Ricoh had taken a winning formula and wrecked it. A non-starter, I would guess.

02-17-2017, 08:24 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by cport Quote
GR monochrome (ie. with sensor without Bayer mask) would be great!
In a limited edition, that would make sense....
02-17-2017, 09:05 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Yes, that all sounds bang on. I guess one consideration is how much the market and people's tastes have changed since the GR was first released - in those heady long-ago days of 2013, lol. Ricoh must have researched that one pretty carefully.

If Ricoh do include an EVF, which would be a departure from the formula, then I think it will indicate that the whole group is ramping up to get serious about more mirrorless cameras.

I can't see any merit in using a Foveon sensor. It comes with huge practical downsides, and lots of the market would then say Ricoh had taken a winning formula and wrecked it. A non-starter, I would guess.
I don't think anyone is saying Ricoh needs to "change" the GR. The GR was already an established paradigm all it's own before Ricoh introduced the GR Digital. I don't think there was much research behind releasing it.

The Foveon sensor has tremendous merit. I have used a Sigma DP2 in the past. A camera that was modeled on the GR design philosophy. Files from a Foveon sensor do have a clarity and sharpness that renders very life like 3D images that is unmatched by bayer pattern. Only with pixel shift which comes with its own limitations can a bayer pattern attain the same level of sharpness. The GR does not and probably can not for size reasons have SR. So no pixel shift. Which means using a bayer pattern sensor in the GR as sharp as the images may appear they are only really just a bayer smudge of sharpness.

The other choice I mentioned is the Samsung 28mp BSI sensor. This is an excellent sensor that would be a great fit in the GR. Especially coupled with the OLED screen Samsung used for the NX500 which would bring touchscreen technology to the GR. When everyone else is using the Sony 24mp cmos sensor the Ricoh GR could have the advantage of a superior 28mp BSI sensor. Which not only handles stills better it handles video better too.

When I had the Sigma DP2 I also had the OVF that attached to the hot-shoe much like the one for the GR. I found it to function well for the purpose without being overly intrusive to the camera. I think it would satisfy anyone that needs to have some sort of Viewfinder.
02-17-2017, 09:48 AM   #71
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The Foveon sensor has tremendous merit... in a very tight envelope. Unless Ricoh want to be niche - and I mean, Sigma camera-level niche - they'd better stick with what works.
02-17-2017, 09:53 AM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
I don't think anyone is saying Ricoh needs to "change" the GR. The GR was already an established paradigm all it's own before Ricoh introduced the GR Digital. I don't think there was much research behind releasing it.

The Foveon sensor has tremendous merit. I have used a Sigma DP2 in the past. A camera that was modeled on the GR design philosophy. Files from a Foveon sensor do have a clarity and sharpness that renders very life like 3D images that is unmatched by bayer pattern. Only with pixel shift which comes with its own limitations can a bayer pattern attain the same level of sharpness. The GR does not and probably can not for size reasons have SR. So no pixel shift. Which means using a bayer pattern sensor in the GR as sharp as the images may appear they are only really just a bayer smudge of sharpness.

The other choice I mentioned is the Samsung 28mp BSI sensor. This is an excellent sensor that would be a great fit in the GR. Especially coupled with the OLED screen Samsung used for the NX500 which would bring touchscreen technology to the GR. When everyone else is using the Sony 24mp cmos sensor the Ricoh GR could have the advantage of a superior 28mp BSI sensor. Which not only handles stills better it handles video better too.

When I had the Sigma DP2 I also had the OVF that attached to the hot-shoe much like the one for the GR. I found it to function well for the purpose without being overly intrusive to the camera. I think it would satisfy anyone that needs to have some sort of Viewfinder.
Lol, half the posts on this thread have been about changing the GR formula.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting is a money-making business proposition. Think of the practical engineering difficulties with Foveon - power draw, battery life, heat, terrible noise over much more than 200 or 400 ISO, a completely new software stack required to "demosaic" sensor output both in camera and as desktop software. And all for a specialist camera on the margins rather than in the mainstream. It just doesn't sound workable. There's no indication that Foveon will ever be a mainstream product so why invest in it if unlike Sigma you don't own the rights to it.

Sourcing a conventional sensor from Samsung is much more straightforward, one presumes, but it's hard to see any need for 28 mpx in a GR. It sounds like overkill. And again, high density of pixels without IBIS = greatly increased chance of smearing. A GR is far away from a tripod camera. In my experience, street photography often works better with fewer mpx - less chance of smearing when a shot is taken suddenly.

My own preference would be for 16 to 20 mpx traded against an improved noise floor (i.e.superior performance at 800-6400 ISO) and kickass BW art filters, but I am sure this is not a business proposition either
02-17-2017, 10:02 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Lol, half the posts on this thread have been about changing the GR formula.
The same GR formula which resulted in a demand double the estimation, after one year of sales?
I can see why they'd want to avoid that on the future
02-17-2017, 10:37 AM   #74
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Anything that would make the GR less than pocketable (really pocketable, not X100 "almost" pocketable) would make it a no-go.
If they can make a FF GR which can easily fit in the pocket, great!
But I have my doubts whether or not it really can be done. Check out the Sony RX1. I think that is about as small as you can make a FF digital camera and it is still too big for most GR fans.
02-17-2017, 10:45 AM   #75
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I have no dog in any fight.....think the GR does some very nice work, though I have never owned one.

I just thought this was a good place to let the bird have some more exposure time....he gets lonely.

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