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12-22-2017, 03:08 AM   #2296
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
I suppose that Panasonic and Olympus are taking big share of customers. It goes along with size, and also agressive marketing. It might be that Ricoh has failed on that, where you are. But I still think that going for big and also niche/pro-stuff is needed, IF you look things in more than 5 years timeline. They are in deep end right now with K-1. But they also have 645 and APS-C line to work with. Thos consumer lenses will come, but being known of being consumer brand is not going to change by not doing these things that not everybody can and will afford. There is other side of that coin, but if one want to change, then it has to be done properly. let's see in 3 yrs. All big brands are struggling with their FF line. Sony is splashing out with money, and making results, but how does everything change. it will be interesting.

meanwhile. I'll invest slowly in my FF gear, and enjoy...so I think that anyone can dislike or disagree as they like, You should go for 11-18 and K-P or what ever APS-C, and be happy. If FF was not for you, then why to complain. Move on
1. Actually Nikon is doing most of the damage, probably because they are in trouble there are excellent Nikon FF deals for some time

2. 645z was Ricoh's cash cow for a few years but they are loosing market rapidly because of the same bad/slow lens release strategy as for K-1. Fuji doesn't share their MF "vision".

3. Only APS-C has a decent modern lenses lineup and if Ricoh survive in camera business it will be because of APS-C cameras and lenses. Last peace of puzzle was DA*11-18 and it will be solved soon.

4. K-1 is much more consumer than a pro camera mostly because of consumer level AF capabilities (in compare to similar Canikon cameras). So their strategy with pro lenses for a consumer camera is a nonsense.

5. I don't think that Ricoh will be in camera business in 3 years because their slow motion business already looks like closing. Based on new lenses, even Sony's DSLR lineup looks much more alive than Ricoh's.

6. My strategy for a long time was Pentax ff. When I bought K-1 I thought that I'll never used APS-C again. But these days I am using my old K-5 10x more that K-1. I've been forced to changed my strategy because of lack of adequate FF lenses.


Last edited by banep; 12-22-2017 at 03:23 AM.
12-22-2017, 03:35 AM   #2297
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
1. Actually Nikon is doing most of the damage, probably because they are in trouble there are excellent Nikon FF deals for some time

2. 645z was Ricoh's cash cow for a few years but they are loosing market rapidly because of the same bad/slow lens release strategy as for K-1. Fuji doesn't share their MF "vision".

3. Only APS-C has a decent modern lenses lineup and if Ricoh survive in camera business it will be because of APS-C cameras and lenses. Last peace of puzzle was DA*11-18 and it will be solved soon.

4. K-1 is much more consumer than a pro camera mostly because of consumer level AF capabilities (in compare to similar Canikon cameras). So their strategy with pro lenses for a consumer camera is a nonsense.

5. I don't think that Ricoh will be in camera business in 3 years because their slow motion business already looks like closing. Based on new lenses, even Sony's DSLR lineup looks much more alive than Ricoh's.

6. My strategy for a long time was Pentax ff. When I bought K-1 I thought that I'll never used APS-C again. But these days I am using my old K-5 10x more that K-1. I've been forced to changed my strategy because of lack of adequate FF lenses.
Right.
Well that seems pretty much like your own conclusion. Just to notice that AF alone does not make camera íconsumer gradeí...but that is actually all that Iíll discuss on this with you. There is simply nothing more to say. It is perfectly fine to be gappy with APS-C. Most shots donít need FF camera. Iím really happy with extra -even thou not so big- difference. Actually for me it would be this FF or then 645. Excisting lenses are already enough for me, but it us nice that they do develope and take also their time with that .

Take care! Donít forget to smile every now and then
12-22-2017, 03:39 AM   #2298
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@banep:
Maybe your country is not relevant nor representative for the global Pentax market, in which case you should be careful not to generalize. Maybe your "decent number of Pentax users" aren't ready (or able) to make the jump to the 2000 euro zone.
Too bad Ricoh isn't willing to do more for the small markets, even if it would be a cost. Though I wonder what could be done...
It's not relevant for sure, but not representative...not sure about that. I would like to see K-1 and D-FA sales figures from some more relevant EU countries like Germany or France. Lack of those figures makes me more suspicious that my country is actually a representative sample of what is going on with K-1 sales in Europe.

p.s. if I remember global figures well, Europe is currently best market for DSLRs it has smallest sales decline of all markets.

---------- Post added 12-22-17 at 11:53 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
You'd be the first to make fun of Pentax if they came with such a lens, if lens is a proper word.
I would like to make fun of this lens in K mount. But I can't.
12-22-2017, 04:03 AM   #2299
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
1. Actually Nikon is doing most of the damage, probably because they are in trouble there are excellent Nikon FF deals for some time

2. 645z was Ricoh's cash cow for a few years but they are loosing market rapidly because of the same bad/slow lens release strategy as for K-1. Fuji doesn't share their MF "vision".

3. Only APS-C has a decent modern lenses lineup and if Ricoh survive in camera business it will be because of APS-C cameras and lenses. Last peace of puzzle was DA*11-18 and it will be solved soon.

4. K-1 is much more consumer than a pro camera mostly because of consumer level AF capabilities (in compare to similar Canikon cameras). So their strategy with pro lenses for a consumer camera is a nonsense.

5. I don't think that Ricoh will be in camera business in 3 years because their slow motion business already looks like closing. Based on new lenses, even Sony's DSLR lineup looks much more alive than Ricoh's.

6. My strategy for a long time was Pentax ff. When I bought K-1 I thought that I'll never used APS-C again. But these days I am using my old K-5 10x more that K-1. I've been forced to changed my strategy because of lack of adequate FF lenses.
Nikon is definitely in more trouble. I think Ricoh is slow precisely because they don't want to go down the same path Nikon has. Dump a bunch of money into a company selling in a shrinking market and you end up with lens and camera bodies sitting on shelves. They don't need to sell at the same rate as Canon and Nikon to turn a profit and as far as I can tell, they are selling what they produce. That's probably good enough.

The K-1 is a mixed bag. It clearly is targeted at landscape and portrait photographers who don't need top end auto focus. But honestly, its specifications compare quite nicely with those of the D810 even though it sold for quite a bit less.

I have no idea how medium format is doing and I doubt that you have numbers on it either. People here who tried the Fuji medium format were singularly unimpressed due to severe lag of EVF and other performance issues. Pentax has lowered its price on the 645z to keep it competitive and is due for a medium format follow up camera. Uncertain as to what that might bring to the table, but certainly if there is a new sensor with better performance it will be the new "hot" medium format camera, at least for awhile. But medium format is a tiny market and a few thousand units a year is a lot. The companies do make money on it, but I certainly wouldn't view it as a cash cow.

12-22-2017, 07:37 AM   #2300
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
Based on new lenses, even Sony's DSLR lineup looks much more alive than Ricoh's.
It's amusing how you declare Sony's DSLR lineup (it's SLT, actually) "more alive" than Ricoh's - you didn't even look at what they announced. FYI: last Sony Alpha lens was announced in 2015; and there's no word about more following.

No, lack of data is not a hint towards whatever you want to believe. And a sample of one - you - is definitely not enough to declare the D FA* 50mm f/1.4 useless.

The K-1 is a 2000 euro FF camera; I don't see it as difficult to understand. The target price; the high resolution, allowing both a nice transition from APS-C through cropping, and to distinguish the camera from the competition's similarly priced products; the typical Pentax characteristics; avoiding fighting on their weak points; a few innovations. Nice job, Pentax. Very nice.
But the lenses are made for the long run. They will work well with the K-1 - and in general, not surpassing its price point; they will have to work well with the K-1's replacement too.
12-22-2017, 07:51 AM   #2301
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The DA*11-18 was not the "last piece of the puzzle" for k-mount APS-C. That would be a prime offering a focal length between the DA 21 and FA 31 with a max f-stop somewhere between as well for DoF control and low light abilities. And it needs to be small.

So I have written it, so it should be done.
12-22-2017, 09:01 AM   #2302
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
That lens is just an illustration, but better old than nothing.

---------- Post added 12-22-17 at 07:46 AM ----------



I was also thinking the same thing and it sounds like a good strategy on paper but there is a catch.
Sales were much lower than expected and that slowed down new lens releases to the unacceptable level.
Maybe if they released enough lenses to at least pretend they were serious, they would garner more sales.
Apparently Nikon, with a full lens line, is in trouble. One can only imaging how much more difficult it must be to attract customers when you don't appear to be offering any sort of long term support for what you are putting on the market.
It's not just about having more than a couple of bloated zoom lenses, it's about showing customers that they take the business seriously enough to attract them in.

QuoteQuote:

I am from a small EU country but with a few decades of Pentax tradition and a decent number of Pentax users.
We still have a regular shops here selling Pentax equipment with K-1 and all D-FA zooms currently in stock.
I've got some sales figures and in short selling of K-1 is miserable and D-FA zooms sales are total disaster.
Honestly I've expected 10x more sales when K-1 came out.
Pentax equipment is selling at the same shop side by side with Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus.
People are watching Pentax but very rarely buying K-1 and never buying those D-FA zooms except 28-105.
After this Christmas, for the first time in decades probably won't be Pentax equipment in stock anymore, just internet orders.
So no more touch&try for me and other Pentax users.

As a conclusion that was a great strategy by Ricoh which failed miserably, at least in my country.
Pentax has a fairly long history now of creating business strategies that fail miserably. It's a pity that Ricoh chose to maintain it.
12-22-2017, 09:18 AM - 2 Likes   #2303
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Maybe if they released enough lenses to at least pretend they were serious, they would garner more sales.
Apparently Nikon, with a full lens line, is in trouble. One can only imaging how much more difficult it must be to attract customers when you don't appear to be offering any sort of long term support for what you are putting on the market.
It's not just about having more than a couple of bloated zoom lenses, it's about showing customers that they take the business seriously enough to attract them in.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Pentax has a fairly long history now of creating business strategies that fail miserably. It's a pity that Ricoh chose to maintain it.
Cheer up! - it's nearly Christmas!

12-22-2017, 09:33 AM - 2 Likes   #2304
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Actually the thing is that Pentax APS-C lens line up is so mature, apt and precise that I am amazed when people comment "not enough lenses". I agree that they don't have a plethora of shitty lenses around and the ones people think are shitty are offering stunning IQ for their price (DA50 and DA35 if you will. Even DA18-55 n DA55-300 are best consumer grade zooms compared to Canikon). That DA*11-18 was the only hole if at all which is filled now and I am already lined up to get it at a full price.

Now about the FF lens line up I don't understand everyone passing by making a comment about availability of lenses.. What FL offerings would mean ..."yes their lens line up is strong" ?? If not D-FA15... to all the way D-FA...450 does not server the necessary focal lengths then I am a little bit puzzled on what these people who think about the lack of focal lengths are thinking.

They have a plethora of 50s already. So I was not too impressed with D-FA*50/1.4 announcement but then that may be the lens that makes them the most money for the cost they are putting in and is a necessary 50mm evil (not so much after seeing at the samples). Also it does not seem to be just another 50/1.4 it is a * optic with ring motor (Innovative that is). Slower and calculated moves are in the best interest of brand survival in this shrinking market. As a matter of fact they are so much more calculated that they did not release MZ-D back then despite being ready for the release because of the sensor performance (possibly or lack of funds). There were FF sensors before and after but only the 34Mpix (the currently in K-1) appealed to them. What does that mean? They are not investing into crappy stuff and just putting things out for the sake of it (which they could have very well done like Canikon or not due to budget restrictions or going flat broke right after).
Even their entry level but now old obsolete K-x (Announced: 2009-12-23) beats Canon t6 (Announced: 2016-03-10) on IQ as it is. They never put out crap ever which is very disciplined for a company in my honest opinion. So I really don't get this whining...
12-22-2017, 10:11 AM - 2 Likes   #2305
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QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
Actually the thing is that Pentax APS-C lens line up is so mature, apt and precise that I am amazed when people comment "not enough lenses". I agree that they don't have a plethora of shitty lenses around and the ones people think are shitty are offering stunning IQ for their price (DA50 and DA35 if you will. Even DA18-55 n DA55-300 are best consumer grade zooms compared to Canikon). That DA*11-18 was the only hole if at all which is filled now and I am already lined up to get it at a full price.
Maybe it has something to do with the dearth of full frame lenses two years after the release of a full frame camera.
Just sayin'
QuoteQuote:

Now about the FF lens line up I don't understand everyone passing by making a comment about availability of lenses.. What FL offerings would mean ..."yes their lens line up is strong" ?? If not D-FA15... to all the way D-FA...450 does not server the necessary focal lengths then I am a little bit puzzled on what these people who think about the lack of focal lengths are thinking.
Look at the lens lineup of ANY of the other camera manufacturers. It might give you a hint.
QuoteQuote:
They have a plethora of 50s already.
Umm, no, they have one rather mundane 50mm lens that was introduced 16 years ago and a 50mm macro.
That does not count as a "plethora", it is what is known as a "couple" (as in two), presuming the conversation is still about full frame.

QuoteQuote:

So I was not too impressed with D-FA*50/1.4 announcement but then that may be the lens that makes them the most money for the cost they are putting in and is a necessary 50mm evil (not so much after seeing at the samples). Also it does not seem to be just another 50/1.4 it is a * optic with ring motor (Innovative that is). Slower and calculated moves are in the best interest of brand survival in this shrinking market. As a matter of fact they are so much more calculated that they did not release MZ-D back then despite being ready for the release because of the sensor performance (possibly or lack of funds). There were FF sensors before and after but only the 34Mpix (the currently in K-1) appealed to them. What does that mean? They are not investing into crappy stuff and just putting things out for the sake of it (which they could have very well done like Canikon or not due to budget restrictions or going flat broke right after).
Even their entry level but now old obsolete K-x (Announced: 2009-12-23) beats Canon t6 (Announced: 2016-03-10) on IQ as it is. They never put out crap ever which is very disciplined for a company in my honest opinion. So I really don't get this whining...
You may not like a new 50mm lens, but it is, at least, a start. What they need, if they want to be taken even remotely seriously, is the following focal lengths: ~15, 20, 24, 28, 35, 50, 85, 105 (non macro), 135, 200, 300, 400.
12-22-2017, 11:38 AM   #2306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote



You may not like a new 50mm lens, but it is, at least, a start. What they need, if they want to be taken even remotely seriously, is the following focal lengths: ~15, 20, 24, 28, 35, 50, 85, 105 (non macro), 135, 200, 300, 400.
Will Ricoh develop all lenses during 10-15 years?
12-22-2017, 11:39 AM   #2307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Look at the lens lineup of ANY of the other camera manufacturers. It might give you a hint.
So Pentax cover FL that the other manufacturers cover? I thought the D-FA line up so far covered from 15mm to 450mm. But may be you know shoot more outside of those FLs then.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Umm, no, they have one rather mundane 50mm lens that was introduced 16 years ago and a 50mm macro.
That does not count as a "plethora", it is what is known as a "couple" (as in two), presuming the conversation is still about full frame.
Plethora = K50/1.2, M50/1.4, M50/1.7, A50/1.7, F50/1.7, K55/f2, K50/4 macro, A50/2.8 Macro, F50/2.8 macro, DA50/1.8, presuming our conversation is still full frame. And I did not count the mundane ones that you mentioned and I am sure I missed all the Taks. DA*55/1.4 is another stellar lens which is also a classic 85/1.4 FOV on APS-C is another well thought out lens. And I actually have all of them and use them on K-1 pretty easily (20 year old or not) and get results that I love. But I may be wrong with the plethora definition.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You may not like a new 50mm lens, but it is, at least, a start.
It is not the start.. they made 50s ever since. So I wonder what is this D-FA*50 going to bring to the table besides the ring motor and * optics (innovation I agree).

---------- Post added 12-22-17 at 01:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
15, 20, 24, 28, 35, 50, 85, 105 (non macro), 135, 200, 300, 400.
D-FA15-30, D-FA28-105, D-FA24-70, D-FA70-200, D-FA150-450 cover all the FLs you mentioned.
Besides DA*200/f2.8, DA*300/f4 are FF lenses.
If we are strictly talking primes then 85 and an additional 50 are coming. Although I would have liked a 15 or 20, or 24 to come first but then D-FA15-30 has it already and is a stellar wide angle lens.
12-22-2017, 11:56 AM - 6 Likes   #2308
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QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
So I wonder what is this D-FA*50 going to bring to the table besides the ring motor and * optics (innovation I agree).
Process validation. Prototyping the design, testing and manufacturing processes for all following lenses in this series and beyond.

50mm is a fairly easy focal length to work with. Any lens catalog eventually needs it anyway. So they use the 50mm to test and validate the processes and procedures for designing and building a completely new series of lenses. Many, many firsts will be in this. Not just in the lens, but in the way they are designing and building it. Design software, manufacturing and machine control software, materials, parts, optics, lens motors, new things everywhere.

We do the same where I work. When something major is going to change start with something fairly easy and with design parameters that can be easily measured and tested for. Once the bugs are worked out on an easy product, then those same processes are used on the harder products.
12-22-2017, 12:13 PM - 1 Like   #2309
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Process validation. Prototyping the design, testing and manufacturing processes for all following lenses in this series and beyond.

50mm is a fairly easy focal length to work with. Any lens catalog eventually needs it anyway. So they use the 50mm to test and validate the processes and procedures for designing and building a completely new series of lenses. Many, many firsts will be in this. Not just in the lens, but in the way they are designing and building it. Design software, manufacturing and machine control software, materials, parts, optics, lens motors, new things everywhere.

We do the same where I work. When something major is going to change start with something fairly easy and with design parameters that can be easily measured and tested for. Once the bugs are worked out on an easy product, then those same processes are used on the harder products.
Very well said. I agree with you a 100% . So the 50 optics are at the back of their hand but this lens is more for them to stream line everything else that may be required for other primes with newer technologies around the optics and assembly line, etc.. Makes perfect sense.
12-22-2017, 12:45 PM - 1 Like   #2310
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