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02-25-2018, 03:51 AM   #2941
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
The sample D-FA*50mmƒ1.4AW images from the K-1 MarkII has this covet attached: *The lens used is Beta version, and the name is tentative.
The detail in these images is quite impressive. You can play Where's Wally in the first one!


Last edited by BROO; 02-25-2018 at 04:00 AM.
02-25-2018, 05:02 AM - 2 Likes   #2942
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
All interesting, Wheatfield.

CameraWiki claims:

"In May of 1971 the company changed its name toTokina Optical Co. Ltd.The company was later acquired byKenkoin March of 1999.[4][5]. Kenko also purchased optical glass manufacturerHoya, whose glass was used by Tokina Optical. The combined company is now known asKenko Tokina Co., Ltd. The US branches of the companies,Tokina Optical Corporation USAand Kenko Company USA had previously merged in 1993 to formTHK Photo Products, Inc.The lettersTHKcomes fromTokina,Hoya,Kenko.[6]With the latter Tokina was merged in 2011 into Kenko-Tokina."
There is certainly a relationship, it’s just that other than that one possible mistranslation, no indication of ownership, including, apparently, financial statements from both companies. THK was an umbrella marketing company, a cooperative joint venture to distribute product.

---------- Post added 02-25-18 at 06:05 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yep, they're not publicly listed, they don't have to divulge much.
Hoya however is publicly listed, and do have to divulge much, and what they donít divulge is Tokina.
02-25-2018, 05:31 AM   #2943
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I thought i read something years ago that the link between Pentax and Tokina was based on a blood relationship between original founders of both companies. No idea if it was true, but it sounded plausible.
02-25-2018, 05:44 AM   #2944
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If it is a similar relationship to the past, then it involves licensing the optical formula, but each company produces their own versions with their own lens coatings. A little different from Nikonians being able to purchase the DFA *50 for F mount.

02-25-2018, 06:24 AM   #2945
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

Hoya however is publicly listed, and do have to divulge much, and what they donít divulge is Tokina.
I don't think Hoya owns anything of Tokina. But it may be some stakeholders of Hoya do.
02-25-2018, 07:11 AM   #2946
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I think it is ok to quote Asahiman from the other board. Here is his take on the relationship:

Approximately 100 in the development team in Tokyo only for Pentax and Ricoh photo and a lot of old Pentax stuff.

The most optic stuff is of the old Pentax developments team.

The partner ship with tokina is very old and absolutely normal in Japan.

Tamron is the biggest OEM for original brands.

Lot of Sony lenses are made by Tamron,same lot of Nikon zoom lenses.

It looks that near all kit zooms are made by Tamron for all Japanese camera brands.

Example ,the Nikon 18-200 is made by Tamron.

The Pentax * 200 macro dream lens is made by the same developer like the Nikon 200 macro lens years later.

Because he switched from Pentax to Nikon.

It's a lot more complicated inside Japanese lens development and Co operations than it looks maybe.

Same in the German history of great times in lens developments.

Example is doctor optics and lot of more.
02-25-2018, 08:05 AM   #2947
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I don't think Hoya owns anything of Tokina. But it may be some stakeholders of Hoya do.
This is most likely. I suspect that someone in Hoya fronted seed money to Tokina to get them going. Possibly a corporate loan or some such. My understanding of the Japanese business model is that it is quite collaborative, even among competitors, something westerners have a hard time getting their heads around. The western business model seems to revolve around crushing and swallowing the competition, the Japanese model seems to be more akin to a rising tide floats all boats.
This goes a long way to explaining why so many Pentax inventions (such as the instant return mirror) found their way into every Japanese SLR camera.
When everyone does well, everyone does well, when only a few do well, everyone suffers.
02-25-2018, 08:56 AM - 1 Like   #2948
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
My understanding of the Japanese business model is that it is quite collaborative, even among competitors, something westerners have a hard time getting their heads around.
Canon and Nikon exec bow each other. When Canon grab 60% of market share some of it taken from Nikon, Nikon have to smile and bow Canon to show respect. Then Nikon unintentionally makes the D850 and Canon have to smile and bow Nikon to show respect. Canon and Nikon CEO may eventually share a cup of matcha tea at a ceremony, Nikon would unintentionally drop tea on the shirt of Canon, but would apologize "Oh I'm so sorry Canon". Tradition is the foundation of everything in Japan.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-25-2018 at 09:04 AM.
02-25-2018, 09:22 AM   #2949
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If you look at the board of directors for Kenko Tokina Co and Hoya you will see a list with mostly the same names. They are both ran by the same group of people but Hoya is private and Kenko Tokina is public. They are two separate companies, but they are basically operated by the same people.
02-25-2018, 01:40 PM   #2950
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you look at the board of directors for Kenko Tokina Co and Hoya you will see a list with mostly the same names. They are both ran by the same group of people but Hoya is private and Kenko Tokina is public. They are two separate companies, but they are basically operated by the same people.
I believe you have it backwards. HOYA is very much a public company.
02-25-2018, 04:16 PM   #2951
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This is most likely. I suspect that someone in Hoya fronted seed money to Tokina to get them going. Possibly a corporate loan or some such. My understanding of the Japanese business model is that it is quite collaborative, even among competitors, something westerners have a hard time getting their heads around. The western business model seems to revolve around crushing and swallowing the competition, the Japanese model seems to be more akin to a rising tide floats all boats.
This goes all the way back even at the highest levels to 1949, where MITI would put companies together or rule that somebody couldn't go ahead with a project - the carrot/stick was loans. It's an interesting alternative to a market built around anti-trust legislation and the prevention of oligopolies.

Reading through all these last posts, my assessment is that the DFA/Opera rumour is not the worst out there.

I'm also prepared to reconsider the shooter on the grassy knoll and Area 51, BTW.
02-25-2018, 04:52 PM - 3 Likes   #2952
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Reading through all these last posts, my assessment is that the DFA/Opera rumour is not the worst out there.

I'm also prepared to reconsider the shooter on the grassy knoll and Area 51, BTW.
LOL

I actually don't care who designs or manufactures the lenses, so long as they're good optically and well built. I don't have experience of recent Tokina glass, but I use some very recent Tamron and Sigma models, and they're great. Most of the negativity I read towards them is steeped in the history of their older, low-budget glass. These days, they're both producing some excellent lenses, and I've no reason to suspect Tokina is any different. If the D FA 50 1.4 happens to be made by someone other than Pentax, so be it.

But Area 51? Now, if you'll just look directly at this light, please (BOOM)...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-25-2018 at 05:19 PM.
02-25-2018, 05:13 PM   #2953
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
LOL

I actually don't care who designs or manufactures the lenses, so long as they're good optically and well built. I don't have experience of recent Tokina glass, but I use some very recent Tamron and Sigma models, and they're great. Most of the negativity I read towards them is steeped in the history of their older, low-budget glass. These days, they're both producing some excellent lenses, and I've no reason Tokina is any different. If the D FA 50 1.4 happens to be made by someone other than Pentax, so be it.

But Area 51? Now, if you'll just look directly at this light, please (BOOM)...
Yes, if Saori has designed this DFA*50, good on Canon and Nikon owners, he's a seriously talented guy who apparently started out of college with the DA16-45, and has done the DA21, DA70 Limiteds all the way up to the DFA* 70-200.
02-25-2018, 06:55 PM - 1 Like   #2954
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yes, if Saori has designed this DFA*50, good on Canon and Nikon owners, he's a seriously talented guy who apparently started out of college with the DA16-45, and has done the DA21, DA70 Limiteds all the way up to the DFA* 70-200.
I thought he was involved with the 50-135/2.8 as well!
02-25-2018, 07:11 PM   #2955
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
LOL

I actually don't care who designs or manufactures the lenses, so long as they're good optically and well built. I don't have experience of recent Tokina glass, but I use some very recent Tamron and Sigma models, and they're great. Most of the negativity I read towards them is steeped in the history of their older, low-budget glass. These days, they're both producing some excellent lenses, and I've no reason to suspect Tokina is any different. If the D FA 50 1.4 happens to be made by someone other than Pentax, so be it.

But Area 51? Now, if you'll just look directly at this light, please (BOOM)...
Just about the only Third Party glass I own or would consider owning is Tokina. I have, among my 60+ lenses, a 30+ year old Tokina 80-200/2.8 which is excellent (and the only zoom I own, and a Tokina 17mm that is also very good. I think I have one of those 500mm Tamron mirror lenses around someplace. I havenít seen it for a couple of decades. It was practicalIy a gift IIRC, certainly cheap enough that I couldnít turn it down. I suppose I should try to find it sometime and see how it works on digital.
OTOH, I had a Tokina 35-105 and 24-40 back in the mid 80s that had bad enough barrel distortion that I was turned off zooms for life. Iím told they have gotten better.
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