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03-05-2017, 06:06 AM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Ah, but say that to Fuji on APS-C and, now, MF. They went from zero to pretty full system in about three years with the X-Trans and they will probably do something similar on MF. Fuji know that if they are swift and decisive, they can knock some other players out of the game altogether.

(...).
Fuji can take advantage of the huge cash flows from the Instax system: around 5 million cameras sold in the last fiscal year (ending March 31st, 2016) and 6.5 million expected this year. Ricoh Imaging have no such cash cow.

03-05-2017, 07:05 AM - 2 Likes   #767
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Fuji can take advantage of the huge cash flows from the Instax system: around 5 million cameras sold in the last fiscal year (ending March 31st, 2016) and 6.5 million expected this year. Ricoh Imaging have no such cash cow.
And for those who deny the effect, THAT is how Pentax continues to suffer from Hoya's asset raid.

.
03-05-2017, 07:49 AM   #768
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Fuji can take advantage of the huge cash flows from the Instax system: around 5 million cameras sold in the last fiscal year (ending March 31st, 2016) and 6.5 million expected this year. Ricoh Imaging have no such cash cow.
Humm , you can nearly get a Pentax K1 for the price of a Fuji XT2... that also explains where the Fuji cash is coming from. Fuji are bootstrapping (rip $500 off the first customer and use it to brain-wash the next customer) and Ricoh just understood it with the KP. Go into a camera shop, the salesman is very glad to show you the Fuji more because if he manage to sell it, that mean reward++ for him. If Ricoh continue their camera business for the long terms, Pentaxians have to know that the years of discounted camera and lenses are over. Now Ricoh are going to make this 50mm lens exceptional, charge a premium for it , and reinvest the extra money into promotion, if that the route they take to get back on track.
03-05-2017, 08:06 AM   #769
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Humm , you can nearly get a Pentax K1 for the price of a Fuji XT2... that also explains where the Fuji cash is coming from. Fuji are bootstrapping (rip $500 off the first customer and use it to brain-wash the next customer) and Ricoh just understood it with the KP. Go into a camera shop, the salesman is very glad to show you the Fuji more because if he manage to sell it, that mean reward++ for him. If Ricoh continue their camera business for the long terms, Pentaxians have to know that the years of discounted camera and lenses are over. Now Ricoh are going to make this 50mm lens exceptional, charge a premium for it , and reinvest the extra money into promotion, if that the route they take to get back on track.
I'm not convinced you are wholly correct about Fuji bootstrapping. It takes too long at the start.

Consider Pentax. For five years before K-1 their only bootstrappable asset was inventory - sell lenses they bought at a fire sale price and use cash flow for Corporate purposes. I strongly suspect much of that money was invested in manufacturing equipment.

03-05-2017, 08:39 AM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'm not convinced you are wholly correct about Fuji bootstrapping. It takes too long at the start.

Consider Pentax. For five years before K-1 their only bootstrappable asset was inventory - sell lenses they bought at a fire sale price and use cash flow for Corporate purposes. I strongly suspect much of that money was invested in manufacturing equipment.
I think it would have had to have been.

This is, I think, a symptom of larger things that are outside the scope / purpose of this forum. We do notice this in other ways; I believe Pentax was planning an APS-C 30mm f1.4 (or so, f1.8 maybe) prime. That should have been a hugely popular product according to my own biases. But it didn't happen because of the Hoya buyout. The 20-40 was planned for years and did eventually see the light of day but I think it's a couple years later than it would have been otherwise.

Ugh.
03-05-2017, 09:42 AM   #771
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The point of a reference lens is the statement. It is an icon, a standard, representing more about the company than the lens itself.

It is understood relatively few people will actually buy the lens, but many will wish they could, and those who can choose any brand will look at Pentax, whereas before they wouldn't even think of it. It is one, necessary step in a long journey for Pentax. The days when a camera company could just release a complete system in a few short years like the mid-70's are long behind us.

The smug, shallow, uncaring, narcissistic, unaware of history attitude to which you refer is vile; an illness of the modern world.
I'm not so sure.. because I don't see how being aware of the history of Pentax, Canon, Nikon, or any other brand and their products is going to make anyone a better photographer. Being unaware of the history on why a 50mm (f/1.4) is a reference lens is not going to make Joe or Jane photographer worse off in getting the shots they want.

Knowing the history of the Piano isn't making me a better pianist. More practice at the keys might though..
03-05-2017, 10:09 AM   #772
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There is that thing about attracting folks from other platforms. Like how Canon doesn't seem to have anything like the 15Ltd. If someone looks at k-mount land and what they expect to be available isn't, they're not likely to trade out of whatever they use now.
03-05-2017, 01:42 PM   #773
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
I think I'm right in saying - this was certainly the received wisdom when I was first learning about photography - that 50mm not only approximates to the field of view of the human eye, but is one of the optically more natural (ie requiring less elements ) lens formulations and thus became the standard kit lens. The reference lens argument is very strong, however - doing this supremely well is an important mark of the company's competence - and I have zero doubt that Ricoh/Pentax will smash it with this one.

43mm, on the other hand, despite being widely regarded as eccentric, is about the closest approximation to the human eye's field of view of any lens, and, as such is ratrher a clever unique Pentax product.
Yup, hence make it a 1.4/43mm otherwise it's just the same as all the Canikon offerings.

03-05-2017, 02:01 PM - 2 Likes   #774
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I'm not so sure.. because I don't see how being aware of the history of Pentax, Canon, Nikon, or any other brand and their products is going to make anyone a better photographer. Being unaware of the history on why a 50mm (f/1.4) is a reference lens is not going to make Joe or Jane photographer worse off in getting the shots they want.

Knowing the history of the Piano isn't making me a better pianist. More practice at the keys might though..
If all you see in my post is a history lesson you're entirely missing the point.
03-05-2017, 02:40 PM - 2 Likes   #775
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I find the discussion between monochrome and mee interesting and almost worthy of itʻs own post.

In my youth, I found the historical background of just about anything pointless and had little interest, but as Iʻve matured, I now understand that the past is the foundation and context for what and why things are the way they are today and where the future will lead.

In some cases, individuals or corporations will evolve conservatively while others find it better to survive or compete through innovation. Pentax is a rare hybrid that respects the legacy with backward compatibility, but also innovates with IBIS, pixel shift, etc.

As much as many of us respect the value of a brick and mortar store presence, Pentax has the vision to know we live in an internet commerce and if they were going to survive and thrive these days, this was a luxury they could not support.

Arguably, Steve Jobʻs Apple made the smartest decisions and designs, but the fact that Ricoh is still committed to Pentaxians of yesteryear and today, shows that they are committed to both the ideals of conservatives and progressives. Iʻm not talking politics; Iʻm talking about photographers.

If we look at other companies like Canon, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, etc, there is a little incentive to look backward. Nikon is a little less so, as they have more backward compatibility to their film cameras and the last FSLR to date. Itʻs even in their DNA when you name a company after a contraction of yourself (Nippon Kogaku) and pay homage to what was considered the benchmark 35mm of the day, the Zeiss Ikon.

I believe this is the root of the success of this forum. It isnʻt just a bunch of consumers and pros buying the latest technology and seeking advice. Itʻs more than that; a spectrum of old timers, rookies, and everyone in-between with just as many good souls willing to teach or help as new souls needing help because the brick and mortar veteran sales expert is pretty much non-existent outside of a few cities like New York, Toronto, or Tokyo.
03-05-2017, 03:19 PM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
As much as many of us respect the value of a brick and mortar store presence, Pentax has the vision to know we live in an internet commerce and if they were going to survive and thrive these days, this was a luxury they could not support.
Alex, I couldn't disagree more. A decade ago the vision by some was that online would be future. Today we live in a multi-channel world where consumers expect seamless integration between physical stores, online through desktop & mobile as well telephone if that's their preference. The more channels for engagement, the more sales grow. In recent years neuroscience research has supported this. Physicality still reigns supreme - being able to see and touch something not only creates 70% deeper brand imprinting and memory recall; it drives a far greater propensity to act. Human beings are creatures of emotion driven things they can touch and interact with.

If Ricoh thinks pretty pictures and videos online are going to drive sales - then they are in the marketing space of the previous decade. Here is an example:

Prior to last Friday; I have never had any desire to purchase a K-1. I have been content with my APS-C K-5II, battery grip and bag of DA Ltd's. Forking out the extra cash for full frame seemed frivolous as I have printed awesome 24" X 36" canvases from K-5II. Last Friday I was travelling in Nova Scotia and dropped into a Henry's camera store. Henry's has a dismal selection of Pentax on a good day so my expectations were low. I asked the gent at the counter if they had any K-Mount lenses Pentax or 3rd party...the answer was "sorry we don't really carry Pentax". I thanked the chap and proceeded to walk away. Next I heard "hang on for a second, we have a K-1 if you'd like to see it". That got my attention. The chap pulled a brand new K-1 from under the counter and took it out of the box. Being the sad little store that Henry's can be for a Pentax shooter...there wasn't a lens to go on the body so I attached my HD DA 70 from my camera bag. The feel of the K-1 was amazing, control layout was perfect, balance was exceptional. It wasn't much bigger than my K-5II. Even though they didn't have a charged battery for the camera so I could take a few snaps; the imprint was the same. Now I'm reassessing my next camera body - which prior to last Friday would have most certainly been APS-C. Perhaps it will be full frame instead.

Last edited by Saltwater Images; 03-05-2017 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Added
03-05-2017, 03:23 PM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@mecrox: "They went from zero to pretty full system in about three years with the X-Trans and they will probably do something similar on MF."

While they're much faster at executing than Ricoh Imaging, the statement above isn't actually accurate.
Yes, they launched 15 lenses from 2012 to 2014 (including). Let's call that a "pretty full system" (albeit their long zoom was only announced in 2016).
However, this took several years of preparations; in a recent interview the Sigma CEO (IIRC) said it takes 2-3 years to develop a new lens. Fujifilm had several years to prepare, likely at least 3 since they were developing a new system.

P.S. The quote system seems to be broken... if it's not a feature.
Forum has been on the blink here today. Could just be my connection. Yes, fair point but I was mainly commenting against an earlier post suggesting that this kind of full new launch hadn't happened for many years. And, of course, the market and consumers don't know about all the behind-the-scenes prep. They only know what is announced and put on sale. Given the much smaller market now, it may well be that such an ambitious and intensive launch won't happen again. For a camera buyer, Fuji went from nowhere to a contender in a very short time. The only likely similar launch I could see would be Nikon, say, plunging into a new mirrorless system or a brand-new Chinese competitor suddenly blasting into the market.
03-05-2017, 03:35 PM   #778
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If Ricoh wants to learn how to drive sales, they need to establish a physical market presence in retail locations - then launch a marketing campaign with physical media amplifying digital channels. Perhaps one of the best examples of doing this right is Samsung's NX campaign "We Are David Bailey" in the UK....
03-05-2017, 03:59 PM   #779
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Uhh... I'm not sure Samsung is the best example...
03-05-2017, 04:21 PM   #780
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QuoteOriginally posted by Saltwater Images Quote
Alex, I couldn't disagree more. A decade ago the vision by some was that online would be future. Today we live in a multi-channel world where consumers expect seamless integration between physical stores, online through desktop & mobile as well telephone if that's their preference. The more channels for engagement, the more sales grow. In recent years neuroscience research has supported this. Physicality still reigns supreme - being able to see and touch something not only creates 70% deeper brand imprinting and memory recall; it drives a far greater propensity to act. Human beings are creatures of emotion driven things they can touch and interact with.

If Ricoh thinks pretty pictures and videos online are going to drive sales - then they are in the marketing space of the previous decade. Here is an example:

Prior to last Friday; I have never had any desire to purchase a K-1. I have been content with my APS-C K-5II, battery grip and bag of DA Ltd's. Forking out the extra cash for full frame seemed frivolous as I have printed awesome 24" X 36" canvases from K-5II. Last Friday I was travelling in Nova Scotia and dropped into a Henry's camera store. Henry's has a dismal selection of Pentax on a good day so my expectations were low. I asked the gent at the counter if they had any K-Mount lenses Pentax or 3rd party...the answer was "sorry we don't really carry Pentax". I thanked the chap and proceeded to walk away. Next I heard "hang on for a second, we have a K-1 if you'd like to see it". That got my attention. The chap pulled a brand new K-1 from under the counter and took it out of the box. Being the sad little store that Henry's can be for a Pentax shooter...there wasn't a lens to go on the body so I attached my HD DA 70 from my camera bag. The feel of the K-1 was amazing, control layout was perfect, balance was exceptional. It wasn't much bigger than my K-5II. Even though they didn't have a charged battery for the camera so I could take a few snaps; the imprint was the same. Now I'm reassessing my next camera body - which prior to last Friday would have most certainly been APS-C. Perhaps it will be full frame instead.
Sadly, your story also shows why B&M are dying and Pentax is right to ignore them. Pentax may have sold a K-1 to you because it was there in Henry's for you to handle but Henry's did not sell a K-1.

You are entirely right about multi-channel and the power of touch-and-feel. But it only works economically for high-volume and time-sensitive merchandise. For low-volume items, the economics of stocking inventory in every store in every town are too costly. That's especially true for technology products that decline in price or are supplanted by new models over short time periods. And for time-insensitive items, the tolerance for paying more at local retail is too low. Pentax camera are both low-volume and time-insensitive.
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