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03-12-2017, 09:21 AM   #871
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Who said only the 50/1.4 has been worked on till now?

03-12-2017, 09:35 AM   #872
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
They should not release more than one lens per year and offer those with a credit financing, what's blocking people to buy is the price, apsc shooter are used to buy multiple sub $500 and sub $1000 items. For a lot of customers, $900 is affordable and $1100 is way off budget. Easy example: buying a K1 is tOO expensive, but buying a K3 and a KP is fine.
This is a problem. I can go to Media Markt and buy any set of Canon or Nikon up to 4.999 euro and pay it on a max of 48 months. But no Pentax in that shop.
03-12-2017, 11:17 AM   #873
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
They should not release more than one lens per year and offer those with a credit financing, what's blocking people to buy is the price, apsc shooter are used to buy multiple sub $500 and sub $1000 items. For a lot of customers, $900 is affordable and $1100 is way off budget. Easy example: buying a K1 is tOO expensive, but buying a K3 and a KP is fine.
What buyers want is choice as much as anything else. Few would buy say three expensive new primes anyway - maybe two at most, a wide and a portrait length to go with the zooms. Which is why starting with a 50mm is a little puzzling too. Lack of choice makes Pentax a less attractive system especially for buyers coming new to the brand. Issuing new lenses at a very slow rate of say one per year is just a competition against oneself, seeing whether you get the lenses out first or dwindling demand for your still-incomplete system collapses the whole shebang instead. I doubt there is time to hang around for another three or four years with market share being low to start with. That would be an invitation to look elsewhere. I think everyone would like Pentax to get a move on and I'd guess they will comfortably exceed one new prime per year.
03-12-2017, 11:45 AM - 2 Likes   #874
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Currently I believe there are 5 zoom and 6 primes available new ranging from 15mm to 450mm with the Pentax moniker for FF sensors. If you include third party manufacturers, you can add another 6 zooms and 39 primes which would extend the focal length range as wide as 11mm to 500mm.

Part of the financial advantage of the film era SLR was the manufacturer could invest in a new model with all the research, development, molds, etc, and that camera would remain valid and desirable for much, much longer than a DSLR, and thus more profitable. One of the reasons that Pentax is still around is because of the longevity of their lens mount, and both the photographer benefiting from a huge selection of legacy lenses and Pentax not going bankrupt by trying to keep up with the Canikony race.

Yes the K-1 "only" has 56 new lenses available vs. 220 for a Nikon FF; 198 for Canon FF; 80 for Sony FF. But seriously, if I canʻt do my job or enjoy my hobby as a photographer with the Pentax system because I feel there are 2-3 more lenses that are not available (or 100+ more lenses)....then yes, I should either use more than one system, switch systems, or realize the problem is in the reflection I see in the mirror.

03-12-2017, 12:04 PM - 1 Like   #875
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Currently I believe there are 5 zoom and 6 primes available new ranging from 15mm to 450mm with the Pentax moniker for FF sensors. If you include third party manufacturers, you can add another 6 zooms and 39 primes which would extend the focal length range as wide as 11mm to 500mm.

Part of the financial advantage of the film era SLR was the manufacturer could invest in a new model with all the research, development, molds, etc, and that camera would remain valid and desirable for much, much longer than a DSLR, and thus more profitable. One of the reasons that Pentax is still around is because of the longevity of their lens mount, and both the photographer benefiting from a huge selection of legacy lenses and Pentax not going bankrupt by trying to keep up with the Canikony race.

Yes the K-1 "only" has 56 new lenses available vs. 220 for a Nikon FF; 198 for Canon FF; 80 for Sony FF. But seriously, if I canʻt do my job or enjoy my hobby as a photographer with the Pentax system because I feel there are 2-3 more lenses that are not available (or 100+ more lenses)....then yes, I should either use more than one system, switch systems, or realize the problem is in the reflection I see in the mirror.
Legacy lenses don't make Pentax or the retailers much money, and the more legacy they become the less well they sell against modern competition. Third-party lenses make no money for Pentax and Tamron and Sigma withdrew, in effect, a while ago now anyway. The FA Limiteds like the 31mm probably have been very profitable but they are now going legacy too in terms of what the market apparently wants and the items can do. Time to move on.

New things made by Pentax make the money and stock the dealer's shelves. It's very straightforward. In this regard it doesn't matter whether Pentax has 6,000 different legacy lenses available. They help attract people to the system, no doubt of that, but they aren't going to keep the company in business even if they are just the ticket for an individual photographer. And eventually, of course, even legacy lenses aren't up to modern high-res sensors. Pentax has to look forwards, not backwards.

Last edited by mecrox; 03-12-2017 at 12:11 PM.
03-12-2017, 12:26 PM   #876
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Did you read the DPR interview of the Sigma CEO? He stated it took 2 years for each of their newer designs to reach store shelves. And that is from a company that is solely dedicated to releasing camera lenses. For Ricoh? These designs take no less time...
Thanks for the link. I had overlooked that interview.

The two-year development time probably includes all the market research, option consideration, business case preparation and management decision-making, as well as the engineering design work, just like any design project. Add testing, evaluation and redesign into that, and the two years makes complete sense. I can't recall the time between the announcement of the Pentax D-FA 70-200 and 150-450 and their appearances in the marketplace, but the announcement wouldn't have been made until they were well into the engineering design phase.

Sigma just released four new lenses at the same time, which, together with the experience from the 70-200 and 150-450, underlines my speculation that Ricoh has a comparatively small lens design resource, given that we're still seeing one at a time for the 50 and 85, and no doubt there are other projects being worked on, in the early stages.
03-12-2017, 12:36 PM   #877
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Legacy lenses don't make Pentax or the retailers much if any money,
Yes and no. Used lenses in retailers are often sold on consignment or were purchased from consumers for credit and have a large mark up with minimal investment. I believe consumers are also more likely to buy a Pentax if they know they have the option of using legacy lenses, and thus it will only help the dealer to sell Pentax bodies.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Third-party lenses make no money for Pentax and Tamron and Sigma withdrew
Ricoh charges a license for third parties to incorporate their patents, and does make money. If this wasnʻt true, why would Canikony permit third party alternatives to their own lenses? The traditional third parties like Tamron and Sigma withdrew because theyʻd rather make a bigger profit focused on the big fish. Meanwhile the upstarts like Rokinon and Irix have filled the void with their lower overhead and smaller production runs.


QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Pentax has to look forwards, not backwards.
Agreed Pentax has to look forward in terms of economics, share holders, profitability, and the next gen of photography. But as a consumer or prosumer, I would still argue that a Pentax APS-C, FF, or MF in the hands of anyone that knows their ʻsuccessʻ is based on them, not their gear, has at their fingertips today, what they need.

If the Canikony are the Toyota, Honda, GM, and VWʻs of the world, I think of Pentax in the category of Subaru or Mazda; smaller production, less models, etc, but still relevant because theyʻve found a niche. Part of the Pentax niche are the special folks of this forum, the legacy glass, and all the features that makes a Pentax unique.
03-12-2017, 12:57 PM   #878
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Ricoh charges a license for third parties to incorporate their patents, and does make money. If this wasnʻt true, why would Canikony permit third party alternatives to their own lenses?
Is this actually true? Which patents are we talking about?
"Canikony" doesn't have any saying regarding e.g. Sigma making lenses for their bayonets. Only when their patents are infringed, like not long ago with Sigma and Nikon...

03-12-2017, 02:13 PM   #879
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Is this actually true? Which patents are we talking about?
"Canikony" doesn't have any saying regarding e.g. Sigma making lenses for their bayonets. Only when their patents are infringed, like not long ago with Sigma and Nikon...
Well, mounts and flash protocols are patented.
Some are licensed (modern K mount), some are not (flash protocols).
In some case (Sigma) they don't give a damn. But it the above is a general consideration.

Voigtlander and Zeiss came with K mount very strangely shortly after KA mount patent was off. Strange huh?
03-12-2017, 02:18 PM   #880
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Well, mounts and flash protocols are patented.
Some are licensed (modern K mount), some are not (flash protocols).
In some case (Sigma) they don't give a damn. But it the above is a general consideration.

Voigtlander and Zeiss came with K mount very strangely shortly after KA mount patent was off. Strange huh?
I seem to recall that the Pentax lens multi-coating system was a patent that earned them royalties, but I'm prepared to be shown I'm wrong on that.
03-12-2017, 03:20 PM   #881
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote

Yes the K-1 "only" has 56 new lenses available vs. 220 for a Nikon FF; 198 for Canon FF; 80 for Sony FF. But seriously, if I canʻt do my job or enjoy my hobby as a photographer with the Pentax system because I feel there are 2-3 more lenses that are not available (or 100+ more lenses)....then yes, I should either use more than one system, switch systems, or realize the problem is in the reflection I see in the mirror.
Average Leica professional photographer has 3 lenses, and gets the job done without complaining.
Pentax now has all the zooms necessary for professional work. When 35/50/85 primes come out, serious men will shut up and do the work. Adam can close Pentax Forums too, because there will be nothing to talk about anymore.
03-12-2017, 03:28 PM   #882
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Well, mounts and flash protocols are patented.
Some are licensed (modern K mount), some are not (flash protocols).
In some case (Sigma) they don't give a damn. But it the above is a general consideration.

Voigtlander and Zeiss came with K mount very strangely shortly after KA mount patent was off. Strange huh?
Can you patent a protocol? I don't think you can.
Whatever the case it cannot stop a third-party from making, through reverse engineer, products compatible with your cameras (this is why I don't believe the mount is - still - protected by patents). Sigma was actually infringing on Nikon VR patents, and Nikon reacted.
But if anyone knows more on the subject, I'm listening...
03-12-2017, 04:08 PM - 1 Like   #883
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QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
Wow! 2 years per lens? It will be no less than 5 years to complete those Pentax primes on the roadmap. I hope Ricoh-Pentax could deliver faster. It is a tough call for the lens department. Unless Ricoh-Pentax could repeat rebranding the Tamron's. My wallet will be very thankful that I may no longer spend unecessarily for Pentax products, maybe when my desired lens will pops out according to Ricoh-Pentax's capacity. I wish them to succeed.
Well I'm guessing they have multiple teams. Sigma has numerous project teams. It isn't just one pipeline. Otherwise it would take ages
03-12-2017, 04:40 PM   #884
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Actually the Sigma CEO said that it sometimes takes 3 years.

By the way, a single pipeline would contain, by definition, several products at different stages of development. While the latency is 2 to 3 years, maybe higher in special cases, the throughput can be significantly faster.
Your use of this term is IMO more relevant than it seems, at a first glance.
03-12-2017, 04:45 PM - 1 Like   #885
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Depends on how you define a pipeline but that is nitpickyness. The point remains they very likely have multiple products in development at any time.

Last edited by mee; 03-12-2017 at 04:53 PM.
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