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04-07-2017, 08:27 AM - 1 Like   #946
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Yeah, that's what you can do if you have Sony money. But at the same time, Sony has lots of failures. They can afford it, they can afford to make a bunch of cameras, each one has one interesting thing and a couple weaknesses.. they don't care. Pentax is playing a different game. Doesn't have that kind of money
No doubt Sony has simply thrown money at the market. The stumbled upon the success of the A7 line simply by accident. They viewed mirrorless as their APS-C consumer grade product which is why there were so few (one) decent lenses for the A7 line for the first 3 years. They admitted in interviews that the success took them by surprise and forced them to move resources away from A-mount. That said. Once they realized what they had they poured resources into it and have built it into a huge success. They are expected to announce a new body this month that will target professionals. High frame rate, fast AF, excellent AF tracking, more battery power, professional build. Will it happen? We will see, but the market is ready for it.

Ricoh makes excellent equipment, but I don't know if they can move fast enough to ever gain enough market share to be relevant to the big picture. The K-1 is an awesome camera for the money, but Ricoh needs to do more.

04-07-2017, 09:15 AM - 2 Likes   #947
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The point is that the more people that sit on their wallets saying they are waiting for the latest and greatest, the less Ricoh will invest. That's because Ricoh knows that a lot of people who say "I won't buy until...." are really saying "I won't buy at all" because the internet will always give them an excuse (rumors of better products, rumors of quality issues) for delaying the purchase.
And this is the wrong way of doing business. It's the responsibility of a company, no matter the product, to convince people to open their wallets for their products. Putting the blame on its actual customer base for not buying enough of their stuff is a sure way to drive a business right in a wall.

Or, put it another way, it's the problem of Ricoh to convince people to spend money on them. No the other way around, people starting to throw money at a company for no good reason, hoping that, maybe one day, they will produce something they're really willing to buy...

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The internet is a giant echo chamber for dissatisfaction in which a few percent of people that have problems dominate the conversation and scare the bejeesus out of potential customers. Even if SDM does have a higher failure rate, I'd bet the vast majority of SDM lens owners have had no problems and will have no problems over the lifetime of their lenses. Sure, I'd prefer a non-SDM lens to an SDM one, but don't think that should entirely stop people from buying the product.
Sure, but this doesn't change the facts that 1) people who already own one of these lenses will not buy another one 2) since these lenses are on the market for something like ten years, many people who wanted one already bought one and those who haven't will probably not buy one anytime soon, and many of those who still want the lens will turn to the used market where these products are easily available after all these years 3) no matter if the bad rep of SDM is merited or not, it's still the customer who decides if he spends money or not on it. If Ricoh don't care that some people might be scared by the bad rep of the SDM, it's their problem and not the customers one, they will not just get these customers money... So, if a company decides cutting itself from all this installed customer bases by not releasing newer products, justified by the fact that some people will still buy them no matter what, it's fine with me. But then, they shouldn't wonder either why many people sit on their wallets. Ricoh absolutely needs people money, but people don't absolutely need to spend their money on Ricoh, if at all...
04-07-2017, 11:05 AM - 4 Likes   #948
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
Or, put it another way, it's the problem of Ricoh to convince people to spend money on them. No the other way around, people starting to throw money at a company for no good reason, hoping that, maybe one day, they will produce something they're really willing to buy......
Actually, Pentax is doing just fine making money. Some of the competition with a lot higher market share is not....
Ricoh doesn't have a problem.
04-07-2017, 02:57 PM - 2 Likes   #949
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Actually, Pentax is doing just fine making money. Some of the competition with a lot higher market share is not....
Ricoh doesn't have a problem.
On both accounts, for the moment.. Once the big entities shed some pounds they may or may not be in the same situation. But even if so, Pentax will have an even more difficult time of it if their goal in any way involves gaining any marketshare. Some of their representatives comments seem to indicate they want more marketshare.. even if not a 1 or 2 slot in the market.

Yet they are largely selling to Pentaxians... which is probably another reason they are so slow with product development.. we aren't going anywhere. Or so they think. I see too many people here who sweep all the issues with Pentax under the rug, plug their ears, close their eyes, and hum it is all gravy. No, its not doooom. But where there are issues, we should be man enough to admit it. And there are issues on the Pentax train.

So the mindset, I think, should be somewhere in the middle between dooom and everything is great. It isn't a black/white situation on the whole. There are dooomy aspects and great aspects to Pentax. Let's be realistic about that.

I'd be upset if I had read its all great in the Pentax pool.. and, when I got there, discovered the water was too cold for me. That detracts from the brand if we don't represent it accurately. Plus it makes Ricoh think they don't need to lift a finger with the issues where they should be directing serious attention...

04-07-2017, 09:14 PM   #950
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Actually, Pentax is doing just fine making money. Some of the competition with a lot higher market share is not....
Ricoh doesn't have a problem.
That's not what we are seeing in France in 2017 : extremely low DSLR sales, inventory's soldout sales in a significant number of shops (including Darty, now under the same banner than FNAC and not displaying the brand anymore) KP is just doing about nil.
This is dire situation.
04-07-2017, 10:53 PM   #951
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Is the market ready for another fast 50 from Pentax? Seems like another 18-55 kit, how many do they have?
04-07-2017, 11:39 PM   #952
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QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
Is the market ready for another fast 50 from Pentax? Seems like another 18-55 kit, how many do they have?
Nothing that'll perform like this.
04-08-2017, 01:12 AM   #953
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
That's not what we are seeing in France in 2017 : extremely low DSLR sales, inventory's soldout sales in a significant number of shops (including Darty, now under the same banner than FNAC and not displaying the brand anymore) KP is just doing about nil.
This is dire situation.
KP is simply to expensive for the left over Pentax-crowd.

04-08-2017, 01:51 AM   #954
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QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
Is the market ready for another fast 50 from Pentax? Seems like another 18-55 kit, how many do they have?
They have a single 18-55 for sale right now. The 18-50 is kind of similar in purpose so I might give you an answer of "Kind of two" as to how many 18-55's Pentax offers today. Ref: Standard Lenses / K-mount Lenses / Lenses / Products | RICOH IMAGING

And really, this thread is how many pages long, and you've missed the point of the D-FA*50 this much? It's a super corrected fast prime that should offer class meeting or beating quality for those that are okay with a lens of this size, weight, and cost.

I do agree that Pentax offers a number of 50mm primes. Each one is really different if we ignore focal length. Low cost "my first prime" DA 50 1.8 that doesn't seem to properly cover the image circle of full frame. FA 50 1.4, a classic fast small 50mm, and represents good value for what it brings to the table along side some dateness in features. D-FA 50 Macro is classic 50 macro, nothing more to say there. And then this D-FA* optic. This list isn't even that long. I really wouldn't want to see any of these removed from the market without direct replacement. I'm wondering when the FA 50 1.4 will be swapped for a more modern replacement, and unfortunately it may be quite some time, and wouldn't be the next issue in the Pentax lens lineup that could use attention. They're in a tough spot.
04-08-2017, 02:09 AM - 1 Like   #955
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QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
Is the market ready for another fast 50 from Pentax?
Are you serious?
04-08-2017, 02:11 AM   #956
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Telling us camera's are getting more expensive, but when Pentax is producing one it is too expensive is just typical of a Pentax bashing mentality.

The KP is just following the market. It's just not enough of an upgrade for K-3 owners (downgrade in some aspects) It is a good upgrade for K-50 or K-s2 owners if there weren't the K-3 II. If you are not used to working with a top LCD and IQ and is more important than ergonomics it is a viable option. Adaptability and screen are great for this Camera, but that will appeal to people who also like the ergonomics of the K-3 II. Ricoh shouldn't have sacrificed ergonomics for are more mirrorless like (Fuji) look. A shutter button on an extruded grip still retaining a stop down preview would have made this a much more appealing camera.

---------- Post added 08-04-17 at 11:17 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
Is the market ready for another fast 50 from Pentax? Seems like another 18-55 kit, how many do they have?

Yes it is, because the old 50 1.4 is ancient. It is a beautiful lens design, but the market is demanding large glass that has corner to corner sharpness wide open. The 50 1.8 is for DA. I think they should redo the old 50 1.4 as a limited with a Takumar look. It is a great classic.
04-08-2017, 02:20 AM   #957
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Are you serious?
That's kind of a trick question. I think he believes what he wrote. But he's obviously not serious as he does no research, at all, before tossing out little hot takes.

kenspo, can you tell the good folks at Ricoh that I have some lens requests to discuss, at their convenience of course? Thx.
04-08-2017, 02:49 AM - 2 Likes   #958
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
On both accounts, for the moment.. Once the big entities shed some pounds they may or may not be in the same situation. But even if so, Pentax will have an even more difficult time of it if their goal in any way involves gaining any marketshare. Some of their representatives comments seem to indicate they want more marketshare.. even if not a 1 or 2 slot in the market.

Yet they are largely selling to Pentaxians... which is probably another reason they are so slow with product development.. we aren't going anywhere. Or so they think. I see too many people here who sweep all the issues with Pentax under the rug, plug their ears, close their eyes, and hum it is all gravy. No, its not doooom. But where there are issues, we should be man enough to admit it. And there are issues on the Pentax train.

So the mindset, I think, should be somewhere in the middle between dooom and everything is great. It isn't a black/white situation on the whole. There are dooomy aspects and great aspects to Pentax. Let's be realistic about that.

I'd be upset if I had read its all great in the Pentax pool.. and, when I got there, discovered the water was too cold for me. That detracts from the brand if we don't represent it accurately. Plus it makes Ricoh think they don't need to lift a finger with the issues where they should be directing serious attention...
I don't think so. I just think that for Pentax increasing sales too much could be just as dangerous for them as having inadequate sales. They are trying for slow, steady growth and by all accounts that is working. But two to three high end lenses is probably their max for a given year. (We'll see at the end of the year where they are at with these).
04-08-2017, 03:04 AM   #959
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
kenspo, can you tell the good folks at Ricoh that I have some lens requests to discuss, at their convenience of course? Thx.
Hehe, i can always bring it forward
04-08-2017, 06:04 AM - 1 Like   #960
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
And this is the wrong way of doing business. It's the responsibility of a company, no matter the product, to convince people to open their wallets for their products. Putting the blame on its actual customer base for not buying enough of their stuff is a sure way to drive a business right in a wall.

Or, put it another way, it's the problem of Ricoh to convince people to spend money on them. No the other way around, people starting to throw money at a company for no good reason, hoping that, maybe one day, they will produce something they're really willing to buy...
Good point! Yet if it takes more money to open customers' wallets than those wallets contain, then it's a losing proposition. There's no way Ricoh can spend the kind of money Canon and Nikon spend on marketing and R&D. I think Ricoh is trying to convince us in their own way and within the economic constraints imposed by Pentax's size and the stagnant nature of the camera market.

Commerce is a two-way street: the company wants consumers' money and the consumers want the company's products. If the company has a responsibility to convince people to open their wallets for their products, then consumers have a responsibility to convince the company to develop and produce the right products. Now there's a lot of people on PF telling Ricoh which products they love to have which is certainly part of the consumers' responsibility. But the bigger challenge is in the consumers convincing Ricoh (and SIgma and Tamron) that there's a big enough number of actual buyers. Everyone knows talk is cheap. It's the sales numbers that tell the true story about what's in the wallet. So if we consumers really want to convince Ricoh (and 3rd party lens makers) to invest more in pumping out more Pentax products, we need to buy more products to make the market look attractive.


QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
Sure, but this doesn't change the facts that 1) people who already own one of these lenses will not buy another one 2) since these lenses are on the market for something like ten years, many people who wanted one already bought one and those who haven't will probably not buy one anytime soon, and many of those who still want the lens will turn to the used market where these products are easily available after all these years 3) no matter if the bad rep of SDM is merited or not, it's still the customer who decides if he spends money or not on it. If Ricoh don't care that some people might be scared by the bad rep of the SDM, it's their problem and not the customers one, they will not just get these customers money... So, if a company decides cutting itself from all this installed customer bases by not releasing newer products, justified by the fact that some people will still buy them no matter what, it's fine with me. But then, they shouldn't wonder either why many people sit on their wallets. Ricoh absolutely needs people money, but people don't absolutely need to spend their money on Ricoh, if at all...
You are right about the specific scenario you mentioned, but I see a lot of fresh faces on PF and other people with very small lens collections that are looking to expand. I'd think that selling to lens upgraders would be much harder than selling lenses to people that have no lens of that focal length at all.

Ricoh doesn't absolutely need peoples money -- they could sell-off or dump Pentax just the same way a consumer might sell off or dump their Pentax stuff. Sure, it would be a financial loss to Ricoh but it's not a mortal blow. Companies kill products all the time if they think they can't get the required return on investment on them. Both sides need each other.

The good news is that it looks like Ricoh understands how to manage technology products in stagnant markets (such as cameras and copiers). That strategy may look a lot stodgier than one used in hot growth markets, but it's needed to ensure financial sustainability for a niche product.
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