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04-11-2017, 09:09 AM   #1021
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The good old "the grass is greener.."
Something we should never forget - I found myself defending Canon to a Canon shooter swearing that he'd never buy another Canon the other day

04-11-2017, 09:35 AM - 2 Likes   #1022
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

FTR, they never made just one lens a year - and you saying one new lens a year, is asking us to ignore Ricoh re-making all DA limiteds with HD coatings and rounded apertures. There's a possibility that we'd only see one K-mount lens this year, OK, but we're barely into Q2 so we don't know.

(...)
Counting only the lenses with an original optical formula, not the remade, revamped or rebranded lenses:

2012
- D FA 645 25mm f/4 AL [IF] SDM AW
- HD D FA 645 Macro 90mm f/2.8 ED AW SR
- HD DA 560mm f/5.6 ED AW
- 06 Telephoto Zoom

Total = four; three if you consider the Q lens as being subcontracted to Nidec-Copal.

2013
- HD DA 20-40mm f/2.8-4 ED Limited DC WR
- 08 Wide Zoom (I don't count the 07 Mount Shield Lens)

Total = two or one, see above.

2014
- HD DA AF 1.4x AW (not a lens but I am counting it anyway)
- HD DA 645 28-45mm f/4.5 ED AW SR
- HD DA 16-85 mm f/3.5-5.6 ED DC WR

Total = three.

2015
- HD D FA★ 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW (could also be counted in 2016 since delayed)
- HD D FA 150-450mm f/4.5-5.6 ED DC AW
- HD DA 18-50mm f/4-5.6 DC WR RE / smc DA L 18-50mm f/4-5.6 DC WR RE

Total = two to three

2016
- HD D FA 28-105mm f/3.5-5.6 ED DC WR
- HD DA 55-300mm f/4.5-6.3 ED PLM WR RE

Total: two to three.

Average: 2.4 new lenses per year, not counting the Q lenses. Trend: flat.
04-11-2017, 09:45 AM   #1023
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
2.4 new lenses per year
2.4 used, famously, to the the statistical average number of children per married couple in the UK - related - nah! can't be
04-11-2017, 11:37 AM   #1024
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QuoteOriginally posted by sbc Quote
It is to me. I bought a DFA 50 macro instead. I lose the wider f stops but gain macro and super sharp images at f2.8. 50mm used to be a 'cheap' lens for people starting out but is now a premium lens.
I really like the 50 macro. I have a 50mm f1.2 but the vast majority of my photos with it have been shot at shot at f4 or f5.6. Personally I have little use for fast lenses and I am a very disappointed in where Pentax has placed their priorities for new primes.

04-11-2017, 11:51 AM - 1 Like   #1025
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Yes it is.
No it isn't , sorry, I'm involved in pricing. Price is always defined based on market, it is not calculated from cost. If price was calculated from cost, all companies you have the same financial ratios, but that's not the case because every company has different costs, so, when prices are aligned to market (in order to be able to sell something), every company has different gross margin figures.

Example: Nikon D610 and Nikon D810. 6D and 5DIV.
There is little difference of manufacturing cost between the two models, but the D610 is priced low to achieve sales against the 6D in for people who have a limited budget for full frame (not willing to pay for the D810).
On the other hand, the D810 is priced more than double of the D610 price. So, in order to max out the overall profit, Nikon makes less margin on the D610 and more profit on the D810. The profit margin relative to cost is very different for the two camera models. Canon does the same. Market wise, the camera are priced and featured to address each level of market (what customer are willing to pay). A 24Mpixel FF sensor costs the same as the 36Mpixels sensor, cost of silicon is based on number of manufacturing steps and silicon area, totally independent from the pixel count, and the difference in yield between the 36Mp sensor and 24Mpixels sensor is negligible because the pixel size is well beyond the process capability. Overall, the difference of cost between 6D,D610 and D810/5DIII/5DIV is about $100, but the difference of price is around $1500. That proves that the price of a camera isn't directly related to cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price
Ref. "Confusion between prices and costs of production"

Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-11-2017 at 12:11 PM.
04-11-2017, 11:57 AM - 1 Like   #1026
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Yet price is not independent from cost, either. Products are designed around a target price all the time, and high cost products are more expensive. Or they're not made.
04-11-2017, 12:14 PM   #1027
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yet price is not independent from cost, either. Products are designed around a target price all the time, and high cost products are more expensive. Or they're not made.
Of course. The ratio between price and cost should lie between 1 and infinity. There are products that sell 20 times what they cost, it depend on the value perceived by the customer, customer does not know the cost and pay according to his perceived value of the product. Understanding price is key to become rich.
04-11-2017, 12:23 PM   #1028
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Counting only the lenses with an original optical formula, not the remade, revamped or rebranded lenses:


Average: 2.4 new lenses per year, not counting the Q lenses. Trend: flat.
It's less than that if you take out the 645 lenses and less again if you take out lenses which replaced existing ones (like the 55-300mm series). For K mount, it is less than two lenses on average for original, inhouse, not done before things. For K-mount FF it may even be an average of one lens if only the new 50mm is issued this year but I guess people hope that won't be the case. The fabled APS-C wide-angle zoom is always on the cards. Asahi man has gone quiet lately. He usually knows.

04-11-2017, 12:24 PM   #1029
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
No it isn't , sorry, I'm involved in pricing. Price is always defined based on market, it is not calculated from cost. If price was calculated from cost, all companies you have the same financial ratios, but that's not the case because every company has different costs, so, when prices are aligned to market (in order to be able to sell something), every company has different gross margin figures.
Companies that don't calculate from cost go bankrupt. Price is always based on cost, you cannot based it on market unless you cover your cost. Market may decide what you can realistically ask for a product but if you don't cover your costs you go out of business.
There are no one that price products from what they think they can get away with, without any consideration of cost, at least if you're not in the alternative/snake oil business.
Of course different companies and different markeds and market segments have different markups, I mentioned that in my post, but they are all based on cost.

---------- Post added 04-11-17 at 09:26 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Of course. The ratio between price and cost should lie between 1 and infinity. There are products that sell 20 times what they cost, it depend on the value perceived by the customer, customer does not know the cost and pay according to his perceived value of the product. Understanding price is key to become rich.
..but you claimed pricing isn't based on cost which is pure nonsense

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 04-11-2017 at 12:30 PM.
04-11-2017, 12:31 PM   #1030
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
without any consideration of cost
Of course, and there is a gap between "without consideration of cost" and < price calculated from cost >. I think we understand the same thing, but I may not be expressing it correctly due to English not being my mother tongue.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
..but you claimed pricing isn't based on cost which is pure nonsense
: - ) , possibly non sense, price based on negotiation, I guarantee you that my salary isn't based on my costs, and I can also assure you that my salary is very different from company to company, yet, I'm the same person.
04-11-2017, 01:37 PM   #1031
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Understanding price is key to become rich.
Quite true. Yet understanding cost is key to avoiding bankruptcy.

Note: there are plenty of examples of companies and people that were both rich & bankrupt.
04-12-2017, 03:41 AM   #1032
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Manufacturing cost is only part of the equation, as you have to take into consideration R&D, marketing, etc. And some products are sold at cost or with a minimal margin of profit with the prospective goal of profit to be made on the entire system or the lifetime of the consumer. For example video game consoles, entry level cars and cameras, most kit lenses, etc.

In the game industry, the profit comes from peripherals, online subscriptions, game licensing and royalties, and sometimes product placement. Car dealerships are semi-subsidized by the manufacturer and make most of their profit on parts and repairs and used car sales. The greatest overall profit for Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etc, are in the lenses and accessories.
04-12-2017, 05:01 AM   #1033
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Just got DA*55/1.4 for 297£ in Harrods, in case we don't see this new and heavy lens coming.....
04-12-2017, 05:54 AM   #1034
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Just got DA*55/1.4 for 297£ in Harrods, in case we don't see this new and heavy lens coming.....
Is that pricing for a new lens or used? Seems like an awesome price for that lens...
04-12-2017, 10:24 AM   #1035
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New, clearance price
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