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09-23-2017, 03:28 AM   #886
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
what? Where? How? - Are those things actually on sale? Where?
Amazon. 1 star rating.. 2 reviews. 1 of which says it worked for only around 10 shots then died. Bottom tier, Chinese made junk, I'd avoid.

amazon.com : Minolta 20 Mega Pixels WiFiDigital Camera with 35x Optical Zoom & 1080p HD Video Optical with 3-Inch LCD, 4.8 x 3.4 x 3.2, Red (MN35Z-R) : Camera & Photo?tag=pentaxforums-20&

09-23-2017, 03:32 AM   #887
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Chinese made junk, I'd avoid.
Not looking to buy - just amazed that the name is being used
09-23-2017, 03:41 AM   #888
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
what? Where? How? - Are those things actually on sale? Where?
Click on the image in my post and you'll be redirected to the corresponding website.
09-23-2017, 05:01 AM   #889
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really do think that one of the major failings Pentax has is that they haven't even really tried to advertise. They have this thing called the Pentax Photo Gallery. I guess it is still there, but they should either ditch it or use it actually demonstrate their gear. They have a few ambassadors, but as far as I can tell, when those photographers say too much, they get in trouble. I wasn't a big fan of Fuji's Crap or Crop video, but it certainly got a lot of views. Paying some excellent photographers to talk honestly about their gear and giving them gear to use would be helpful.

The hipster versus mainstream thing is a red herring. In the end, people have to know about your gear and why it is worth their while to get it or you will have declining sales.
Not a red herring, but partially explaining how Fuji's userbase is generally supporting their brand, while Pentaxians are sabotaging it. It doesn't try to do more than that
I'd like them to communicate more/better outside Japan, too. But what kind of comments would be seen in a promotional video? Poor AF? No MILC? How Fuji is better?

09-23-2017, 05:19 AM   #890
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Not a red herring, but partially explaining how Fuji's userbase is generally supporting their brand, while Pentaxians are sabotaging it. It doesn't try to do more than that
I'd like them to communicate more/better outside Japan, too. But what kind of comments would be seen in a promotional video? Poor AF? No MILC? How Fuji is better?
I think the two biggest things Fuji has going for them are (1) advertising and (2) a consistent, coherent and well documented message. In addition, they have had a steady release of nice products and glass.

I don't honestly know how many Fuji users there really are and how happy they are, but it seems as though the fact that Fuji said up front that they weren't doing full frame meant that people who strongly wanted that either didn't buy in or eventually moved on. For years, Pentax wasn't doing full frame. When they finally did, it was a surprise, but I think a lot of folks thought that there would be more follow up. I certainly thought we would see the next wave of full frame lenses within a year and it sounds like it will be closer to two years.

All of that said, I really don't see most of the comments here as "sabotaging" the brand. I would make exception for the people who make blanketly false statements like "Pentax can't auto focus at all..." "The FA limited lenses are outdated and worthless..." Those sorts of statements to me indicate a certain level of user error, but in general, when you are happy with the gear you have but you want more, that isn't breaking the brand as much as the lack of a message from the brand itself is.
09-23-2017, 06:47 AM   #891
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I agree with (1) and (2), and I would add: no luggage (think: SDM issues)
The FF story is quite illustrative, IMO - Fuji said they weren't doing full frame and everything was OK. Their users obediently listened when Fuji told them that crop is what they want, they don't need any full frame; vloggers repeated the message (Zack Arias claims to do so without being paid by Fuji). It's all supported by marketing - I never said otherwise - but it goes smoothly for Fuji.
And yes, the higher execution speed is helping them as well.

No, it's not most of the comments, nor (fortunately!) most of us. My apologies, I don't want to say we're that bad! And for the record, I think you're a very reasonable person, definitely not what I'm talking about.
A few voices can make a lot of noise, though. Not everyone is reasonable, some are too upset, some are ill intended, some are simply following their agenda and Pentax is in their way. With the brand that keeps quiet like Pentax, this has some impact.

Food for thought: how come DPReview's Samsung Talk Forum is more positive, compared to the Pentax SLR Talk Forum?
09-23-2017, 07:20 AM   #892
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really do think that one of the major failings Pentax has is that they haven't even really tried to advertise. They have this thing called the Pentax Photo Gallery. I guess it is still there, but they should either ditch it or use it actually demonstrate their gear. They have a few ambassadors, but as far as I can tell, when those photographers say too much, they get in trouble. I wasn't a big fan of Fuji's Crap or Crop video, but it certainly got a lot of views. Paying some excellent photographers to talk honestly about their gear and giving them gear to use would be helpful.

The hipster versus mainstream thing is a red herring. In the end, people have to know about your gear and why it is worth their while to get it or you will have declining sales.
I don't think Fuji had anything to do with the Zack's "Crop or Crap" video. What Fuji did to get exposure is that they found quite a few relatively small photographers who were very active on social media. Guys who were grinding it and were passionate about what they did and they connected with them. Guys like Zack Arias (DEDPXL.COM) and David Hobby (Strobist.blogspot.com) who at that time were very active and did the kind of work that Fuji was a good fit for. Zack has gone to using a Phase One 100MP for his work. I think he has an X-Pro 2 and a couple of lenses still as a back-up when he travels. When Fuji releases the GFX 100 (100MP) I'm sure Zack will move over to it. The GFX 100 sensor will be a much more modern sensor with PDAF integrated so it will be a faster camera in pretty much every way. Pentax actually sponsored Benjamin Kanarek, but ultimately he switched to Nikon (no sponsorship). I don't think Fuji pays any of their ambassadors directly, but there are some perks. I do think that Sony pays a couple of their "Sony Artisans", but obviously not all of them.

Ricoh seems to be getting better at advertising.
Photographer's Forum – Magazine for the Emerging Professional
Home | Professional Photographer Magazine
Ricoh has been running ads in both of these and on-line.

What I don't see from them is a clear message about who should buy their cameras and why. They don't really seem to be targeting any one market of professional photography. They just put as much tech as they can into the camera to try to appeal to as many different people as possible, but they lack focus (no pun intended).

---------- Post added 09-23-17 at 09:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Not a red herring, but partially explaining how Fuji's userbase is generally supporting their brand, while Pentaxians are sabotaging it. It doesn't try to do more than that
I'd like them to communicate more/better outside Japan, too. But what kind of comments would be seen in a promotional video? Poor AF? No MILC? How Fuji is better?
Here is a key problem that Ricoh has. When the Fuji X-Pro 1 launched the AF was pretty awful. There was non PDAF on sensor at that time. The entire camera was frustrating to operate, but it looked cool enough that the hipsters were willing to forget about that. Besides, they were shooting old manual focus glass with adapters. What separates Fuji from Ricoh is that Fuji quickly fixed those issues. The X-T1 was also really buggy at launch, but within a year and a half firmware 4.0 was out and Fuji had fixed and added so many features that some of the review site re-wrote their review of the X-T1. The X-T2 is now out and in this brief time frame Fuji has gone from pretty awful AF to having better AF than Ricoh. The same can be said for Sony. Companies with new systems are passing Ricoh by rather quickly. My local brick and mortar store use to only carry Canon & Nikon. They now carry both Sony and Fuji along with Panasonic. No Pentax. Why? Nobody asks about Pentax. They had more people coming in asking about Panasonic cameras than Pentax cameras.
09-23-2017, 08:27 AM - 3 Likes   #893
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It's not so much that comments here and on similar threads are "sabotaging" the brand but I must be honest -- if I had not made the decision over a year ago to move from Canon to Pentax and were making that decision today & read the threads here and seen Pentax not release a lens in over a year I almost certainly would lean toward buying the Nikon D850 -- not because it is any better than the K-1 but because the lens (modern) lineup and accessories are more extensive and I am pretty sure Nikon will be in business and releasing lenses and cameras for the forseeable future. I don't think this is the fault of the posters here but Pentax's own fault.


I mentioned earlier in the thread -- a year ago Pentax looked like a company on a mission with the release of the K-1 and a trio of lenses and with an ambitious road map to flush out the line. Small things that Pentax could have done to buy time if they needed it would have been to release the accessories, teleconverters, extension tubes, updating the flashes, supporting a few pros who release "how to" videos or creating them in-house and having a dedicated area for this on the website, subsidizing if necessary a "Rocky Nook" or similar book for the K-1 and K-P -- all of this would go a long way to showing an engaged manufacturer building out it's lineup. The only "sabotage" I really see is Pentax's all around silence and entropy ....


Please don't misunderstand my posts as Pentax bashing -- I have been a 67 system owner for over 25 years and have picked up the K-1 with quite a few lenses -- I think Pentax did exceedingly well with the K-1 -- but only if it is the first step in building a system and not as a culmination to its history. I sincerely hope Pentax continues it's rich history and builds the brand but I think it is fair to say that they have really dropped the ball in the full frame system by not releasing any lenses or accessories and by being virtually silent on its plans. Hopefully this will turn around in the future ...

09-23-2017, 09:39 AM   #894
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@Winder:
Fuji had a lot to do with Zack Arias' video Most likely not by paying him to do it, maybe not by "paying" him indirectly (what were the terms of his Ambassador status?), but definitely by making a certain kind of products, and advertising them in a certain way.
"Hipsters", you say? From what I see, we're mostly agreeing with each other. The thing to understand is that I'm not blaming the Pentaxian community (which obviously includes me) for the current Pentax' situation. I'm not trying to convey things beyond what I'm actually writing.
So my posts are about generating hype, and not on the broader scope of selling products

---------- Post added 23-09-17 at 07:45 PM ----------

Getting back to this thread's subject a bit - I wonder if the D FA* primes, assuming they're up there with the best (that remains to be seen... but I believe they will be very good, and expensive as well of course), will generate hype or be generally unnoticed except for the "OMG so expensive!" comments.
Remember Mike Johnston's "The best (autofocus) lenses money can buy" article?
09-23-2017, 10:11 AM   #895
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I remember the late Dr Stuart Bell, who used to review Pentax lenses for the UK Amateur Photographer magazine, and thought very highly of them made a comment, way back in the 1980s that has always stuck in my mind - something to the effect that at some stage somebody at Pentax had found a bushel and decided to hide Pentax's light under it (one for the Biblically literate) - that was back in the '80s when Pentax were Asahi. That bit of DNA also has survived down the generations.
09-23-2017, 01:06 PM   #896
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Getting back to this thread's subject a bit - I wonder if the D FA* primes, assuming they're up there with the best (that remains to be seen... but I believe they will be very good, and expensive as well of course), will generate hype or be generally unnoticed except for the "OMG so expensive!" comments.
Remember Mike Johnston's "The best (autofocus) lenses money can buy" article?
If the lenses are built to the same standard as the D-FA* 70-200mm and previous FA* lenses like the FA* 85mm then I expect they will be well received. The weather sealing and build quality needs to be premium. If Ricoh will get the lenses in the hands of reviewers I think they will generate some hype for the system. Ricoh still needs to close the gap in AF-C performance. Hopefully we will see some new FA Limited (f/2) options soon after the D-FA* lenses. They need to develop relationships with key reviewers. Some review video bloggers claimed they never could get a K-1 or 645z to review.
09-23-2017, 01:28 PM   #897
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@Winder:
Fuji had a lot to do with Zack Arias' video Most likely not by paying him to do it, maybe not by "paying" him indirectly (what were the terms of his Ambassador status?), but definitely by making a certain kind of products, and advertising them in a certain way.
"Hipsters", you say? From what I see, we're mostly agreeing with each other. The thing to understand is that I'm not blaming the Pentaxian community (which obviously includes me) for the current Pentax' situation. I'm not trying to convey things beyond what I'm actually writing.
So my posts are about generating hype, and not on the broader scope of selling products

---------- Post added 23-09-17 at 07:45 PM ----------

Getting back to this thread's subject a bit - I wonder if the D FA* primes, assuming they're up there with the best (that remains to be seen... but I believe they will be very good, and expensive as well of course), will generate hype or be generally unnoticed except for the "OMG so expensive!" comments.
Remember Mike Johnston's "The best (autofocus) lenses money can buy" article?
I really think they will be excellent lenses. Pentax has always been a glass company. The only two questions for me are cost and whether they do a good job, as Winder says, of publishing how good they are -- that is getting copies along with K-1s into the hands of reviewers. The DFA *70-200 is an excellent lens, but it hasn't exactly been reviewed a bunch of places and a least a little of the blame for that comes from Ricoh.
09-23-2017, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #898
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Yes, they should work on the "publishing how good they are" thing, especially outside Japan. Yet they'd still be fighting against the current.
Perhaps having someone like Zack Arias would help... but I don't see it happening.

How about DXOMark who tested the 645z and found it too good to be published?
09-23-2017, 07:30 PM   #899
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yes, they should work on the "publishing how good they are" thing, especially outside Japan. Yet they'd still be fighting against the current.
Perhaps having someone like Zack Arias would help... but I don't see it happening.

How about DXOMark who tested the 645z and found it too good to be published?
I know Tony Northrup said he could never get Pentax gear to review. Someone who bought a K-1 let him borrow it for his review. Tony had the same issue with the 645z. Ricoh has no real channel to get review samples out to bloggers and YouTube review. That is one of the things that both Fuji and Sony seem to do very well. Get the bloggers and YouTubers involved in the product marketing.

I have never understood why DxO has never published the 645z review or put it in the database. They have always spoke positively about Pentax performance when it comes to sensors/cameras.
09-23-2017, 07:39 PM   #900
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I know Tony Northrup said he could never get Pentax gear to review. Someone who bought a K-1 let him borrow it for his review. Tony had the same issue with the 645z. Ricoh has no real channel to get review samples out to bloggers and YouTube review. That is one of the things that both Fuji and Sony seem to do very well. Get the bloggers and YouTubers involved in the product marketing.
I strongly suspect there are far far far more people out there that listen to the talking heads on youtube and enthusiast sites than they do to pro photographers signed to shoot with a particular brand's equipment.

I think Pentax must be in an older mindset.. like waiting for the 5 o'clock news still to get the weather forecast when they can go online and get it whenever they want it and have a more up to date (thus accurate) forecast.
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