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09-25-2017, 06:18 AM   #931
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
(...)

They are also manual focus lenses and you can't simply convert manual focus lenses over to AF and get good results unless you are going back to screw drive and really loosen up the gear system. You can't have any dampening at all. Tokina may be the company designing the new lenses, but I don't think they will be AF versions of the Cine lenses.
  • (manual focus) Canon Cinema EOS lenses derive from their (autofocus, USM) EF lenses
  • (manual focus) Sigma Cine lenses derive from their (autofocus, HSM) Art lenses; the 85mm Cine was launched before the Art version
  • (manual focus) Tokina Cinema ATX lenses derived from their (autofocus, screw-driven) ATX lenses
In any case (be the photo lens manually focussed, screw-driven or equipped with its own motor), the helicoid of a cinema lens is different from that of its photo counterpart and you must design the two focussing systems independently.


Last edited by Mistral75; 09-25-2017 at 06:26 AM.
09-25-2017, 06:21 AM   #932
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Specifications of the 50mm T1.5



over two kg and a 112mm filter size. These are totally different beasties. The D FA* 50mm 1.4 has a 72mm filter size.
09-25-2017, 06:44 AM   #933
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Specifications of the 50mm T1.5



over two kg and a 112mm filter size. These are totally different beasties. The D FA* 50mm 1.4 has a 72mm filter size.
This is the same for other photo / cine lenses that share the same optical formula. For instance:
  • Zeiss Classic Planar T* 50mm f/1.4: 330-380g, filter diameter 58mm, maximum diameter 66-71mm
  • Zeiss CP.2 50 mm T/1.5 Super Speed: 900g, filter diameter unknown, maximum diameter 114mm.
09-25-2017, 06:45 AM   #934
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Which lens makers have 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm lenses in their portfolios? I think it would be easier to list the brands that don't have those. I really don't think that means much

I wouldn't say that Pentax couldn't have a relationship with Tokina, but if it was like before, it would be more a sharing of optical formulas, but with Pentax creating their own lens body/lens motor. There still is some licensing going between the two, as Pentax still sells the 12-24 which is licensed from Tokina and Tokina still sells the 10-17 fish eye and 100 macro which are based on Pentax optica designs.

Still, these current lenses seem like a start from scratch product on the part of Pentax, otherwise they would have hit store shelves a long time ago.

09-25-2017, 06:52 AM   #935
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Which lens makers have 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm lenses in their portfolios? I think it would be easier to list the brands that don't have those. (...)
Exactly:
  • Which 24x36 SLR/SLT camera maker doesn't have 35mm, 50mm and 85mm f/1.4 lenses in its portfolio (yet)? Ricoh Imaging.
  • Which 24x36 cine+photo lens maker which has 35mm, 50mm and 85mm T/1.5 cine lenses in its portfolio doesn't have 35mm, 50mm and 85mm f/1.4 photo lenses in it? Tokina.
That was my starting point.
09-25-2017, 07:02 AM   #936
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Those are the 3 most common prime focal lengths, so I don't think it means anything.

They are also manual focus lenses and you can't simply convert manual focus lenses over to AF and get good results unless you are going back to screw drive and really loosen up the gear system. You can't have any dampening at all. Tokina may be the company designing the new lenses, but I don't think they will be AF versions of the Cine lenses.
Exactly!

The mechanical design of a great MF cine lens (highly-damped element movement driven by very fine-pitch helicoids or cam barrels) is very different from the mechanical design of a great AF photography lens (undamped element movement driven by a coarse-pitch or short-throw cam).

Moreover, the Tokina lenses were designed under cine optical constraints -- no focus breathing -- that significantly complicate the optical design in ways that either add cost or force compromises in other optical performance dimensions (sharpness, bokeh, distortion, aberrations, etc.) In order to create a lens that does not breath, the front nodal point cannot move and the focal length must widen slightly as the lens focuses to correct for changes in imaging geometry caused by focusing. A designer of a still-photography lens would neither need nor want to live under the "no breathing" constraint. (It's just another example of why great cine and great photography really are two different applications requiring two different product lines.)

It's not impossible that Tokina and Pentax pooled their resources to create the baseline optical design, each then designed different housings and manufacturing systems, and then they split the market into Pentax AF still photography and non-Pentax MF cinematography versions but it seems unlikely. The design differences for the two applications mean less engineering cost sharing than first appears, less commonality in manufacturing, and either added costs or performance compromises.
09-25-2017, 07:07 AM   #937
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
This is the same for other photo / cine lenses that share the same optical formula. For instance:
  • Zeiss Classic Planar T* 50mm f/1.4: 330-380g, filter diameter 58mm, maximum diameter 66-71mm
  • Zeiss CP.2 50 mm T/1.5 Super Speed: 900g, filter diameter unknown, maximum diameter 114mm.
That doesn't explain the difference in length. The Pentax 50 will be under 10cm, the Tokina is over 13cm. The Zeisses are only 1cm apart which can be explained by the front part extruding more so it is acting like a hood. Also the weight difference is much less dramatic. The D FA* will probably be less than 800 grams (given it has a smaller filter diameter than the Sigma 50mm 1.4 art which is 815grams). Diameters are standardized for Cine lenses but length isn't and weight must be the metal body, but when weight is so much more I suspect larger lens elements.
09-25-2017, 07:11 AM   #938
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photoptimist, you're totally right with the "no-breathing " and other cine optical constraints as far as high-end cinema lenses are concerned. Those lenses cost more than $10k, e.g;. between $12,000 and $20,000 for the Zeiss Ultra Prime lenses and between $20,000 and $30,000 for the Zeiss Master Prime lenses.

Here we are talking about $4-5k entry-level cinema lenses. As listed before, all of them, with the possible exception of the Tokina Cinema Vista lenses, derive from photography lenses:

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
(...)
  • Canon Cinema EOS lenses derive from their EF lenses
  • Leica M 0.8 (cine) lenses derive from Leica M lenses
  • Mitakon cine lenses derive from their photo lenses
  • Samyang Cine and Xeen lenses derive form their photo lenses
  • Sigma Cine lenses derive from their Art lenses
  • SLR Magic cine lenses derive from their photo lenses
  • Tokina Cinema ATX lenses derived from their ATX lenses
  • Zeiss Compact Prime CP.2 lenses derived from their former Classic ZE/ZF.2 lenses.
(...)


09-25-2017, 07:23 AM   #939
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Whatever the truth of this conjecture, and I know even less about that than many here, but I don't see why Pentax could no longer design a (traditionally easy) 50mm prime (and yes, I know this is a modern prime with all the edge to edge sharpness, lack of aberrations, nice bokeh etc etc etc) when they can design a lens such as the 70-200, a massively more complex beast. And they already have a great 85mm f/1.4 - why would they need to start from scratch or get help? I might be naive about this, but it simply doesn't make sense to farm out prestige lense - you might get great lenses, but little or no prestige. It's already clear in the 24-70 and 15-30, which people dismiss as overpriced Tamron re-badges. And prestige seems to me to be at the heart of the strategy that Ricoh is adopting. I know I'd be very sad if these turned out to to be 100% Pentax - and I don't think it would be good for the brand.
09-25-2017, 07:40 AM   #940
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
That doesn't explain the difference in length. The Pentax 50 will be under 10cm, the Tokina is over 13cm. The Zeisses are only 1cm apart which can be explained by the front part extruding more so it is acting like a hood. (...)
Indeed, it does not if, and only if, the Pentax lens is shorter than 10cm. However data concerning the length of the Pentax lens still remain to be published (including a measurement of the mock-up's length). The length of the Zeiss Milvus Distagon T* 50mm f/1.4 is 94-98mm, that of the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 DG HSM | Art is 99.9mm, that of the Zeiss Otus Distagon T* 55mm f/1.4 is 125-127mm.

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
(...) Also the weight difference is much less dramatic. The D FA* will probably be less than 800 grams (given it has a smaller filter diameter than the Sigma 50mm 1.4 art which is 815grams). Diameters are standardized for Cine lenses but length isn't and weight must be the metal body, but when weight is so much more I suspect larger lens elements.
Far from "much less dramatic", the weight difference is quite comparable:

Tokina Cinema Vista 50mm T/1.5: 2,110 g. 2,110 800 = 2.64x

Zeiss Compact Prime CP.2 50 mm T/1.5 Super Speed: 900g. Zeiss Classic Planar T* 50mm f/1.4: 330-380g. 900 380 = 2.34 and 900 330 = 2.73.

---------- Post added 09-25-2017 at 04:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Whatever the truth of this conjecture, and I know even less about that than many here, but I don't see why Pentax could no longer design a (traditionally easy) 50mm prime (and yes, I know this is a modern prime with all the edge to edge sharpness, lack of aberrations, nice bokeh etc etc etc) when they can design a lens such as the 70-200, a massively more complex beast. And they already have a great 85mm f/1.4 - why would they need to start from scratch or get help? I might be naive about this, but it simply doesn't make sense to farm out prestige lense - you might get great lenses, but little or no prestige. It's already clear in the 24-70 and 15-30, which people dismiss as overpriced Tamron re-badges. And prestige seems to me to be at the heart of the strategy that Ricoh is adopting. I know I'd be very sad if these turned out to to be 100% Pentax - and I don't think it would be good for the brand.
Who wrote that Ricoh Imaging could no longer design a 50mm prime, even though the retrofocus design of the modern versions of such lenses is anything but traditional (farewell, double Gauss...)?

The past partnership between Pentax and Tokina saw one optical formula patented by Tokina and licensed to Pentax and many (around ten?) optical formulas patented by Pentax and licensed to Tokina.

The conjecture we are discussing is about cost sharing, not the incapacity of doing.

Last edited by Mistral75; 09-25-2017 at 07:46 AM.
09-25-2017, 07:51 AM   #941
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I'm not not sure I believe this bit of speculation, but it's interesting. As far as I know, the lenses that had some Tokina involvement were the DA 35mm Limited Macro, the DA 10-17 Fisheye, the DA 12-24 , the DA*16-50 and the DA* 50-135. Those are all highly regarded lenses, and the only real criticism you can aim at them is the SDM motor, which is hardly due to the shared optical formulas. This was not the same as rebranding existing Tamrons.

I would also point out that the period when these lenses were coming out was the most prolific in Pentax's recent history, with 8 lenses coming out in 2008. If that's the deal Ricoh has to deliver a range of lenses quickly, I would not object. Anyway, all the companies are doing this in various forms. Nothing is "pure" in that sense, because these companies have dependencies on each other. The only difference is the exact nature of the collaboration and the fact that sometimes you hear about it and sometimes you don't.

Ricoh currently has a section of their Japanese web store for Kenko-Tokina products, so whatever the circumstances were that ended their lens making relationship, it was not so acrimonious that it stopped them doing business together.
09-25-2017, 08:12 AM   #942
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The past partnership between Pentax and Tokina saw one optical formula patented by Tokina and licensed to Pentax and many (around ten?) optical formulas patented by Pentax and licensed to Tokina.

The conjecture we are discussing is about cost sharing, not the incapacity of doing.
OK - I misunderstood your implication - I thought that you were saying that Pentax were taking a pre-existing optical formula developed by Tokina for these lenses - but I do think that it's very important at this stage that these lenses are, 100% Pentax in design.
09-25-2017, 08:16 AM   #943
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
okina Cinema Vista 50mm T/1.5: 2,110 g. 2,110 800 = 2.64x Zeiss Compact Prime CP.2 50 mm T/1.5 Super Speed: 900g. Zeiss Classic Planar T* 50mm f/1.4: 330-380g. 900 380 = 2.34 and 900 330 = 2.73.
Yeah and it is 1310 grams vs 520-70 grams. it's just how you tell it. I maintain the differences are far greater than the specs they would likely have in common, being 35/50/85 F1.4 T1.5 Which is are pretty common focal lengths for full frame systems. I expect you think Pentax will also bring out an 18mm F.4 and a 25mm F1.4 The two other primes in the Tokina Vista Prime line up.
09-25-2017, 08:52 AM   #944
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I'm not not sure I believe this bit of speculation, but it's interesting. As far as I know, the lenses that had some Tokina involvement were the DA 35mm Limited Macro, the DA 10-17 Fisheye, the DA 12-24 , the DA*16-50 and the DA* 50-135. Those are all highly regarded lenses, and the only real criticism you can aim at them is the SDM motor, which is hardly due to the shared optical formulas. This was not the same as rebranding existing Tamrons.

I would also point out that the period when these lenses were coming out was the most prolific in Pentax's recent history, with 8 lenses coming out in 2008. If that's the deal Ricoh has to deliver a range of lenses quickly, I would not object. Anyway, all the companies are doing this in various forms. Nothing is "pure" in that sense, because these companies have dependencies on each other. The only difference is the exact nature of the collaboration and the fact that sometimes you hear about it and sometimes you don't.

Ricoh currently has a section of their Japanese web store for Kenko-Tokina products, so whatever the circumstances were that ended their lens making relationship, it was not so acrimonious that it stopped them doing business together.
Most of the "collaboration" in the past was Tokina licensing Pentax optical formulas, the only one that was the reverse was the DA 12-24. It was a sign of how hard financial times Pentax was in that they had to do that to make a little money.

In the long run, Pentax needs to have their own lenses, hopefully with their own special take on things
09-25-2017, 09:26 AM - 1 Like   #945
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When Tokina anounced the cin Lenses I thought the same thing as Mistral75. As far as the differences in size well here is a comparison to think about.

Pentax da* 50-135 to the tokina cin 50-135

Focal Length: Same 50-135
Format: Same APS-C
Aperature Range: Same F/2.8 to F/22
Minimum Focus: Same 1meter
Magnification: Same 0.17x
Elements/Groups: Same 18/14
Diaphram Blades: Same 9
Filter Thread: Pentax 67mm << Tokina 112mm
Length: Pentax 136mm < Tokina 159mm
Wieght: Pentax 1.51 lbs(685 g) << tokina 3.4 lbs(1530 g)

Are these two companies done with each other? I dont know.

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