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12-09-2017, 03:04 PM   #1426
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Oh, so now that we know Canon doesn't have a modern 50mm either, it's unimportant? I thought it was pathetic when a manufacturer doesn't offer such a thing!

The exact order in which Ricoh Imaging is launching those primes will soon become irrelevant.
I didn't read that as he was saying it is pathetic that a manufacturer doesn't offer a particular lens. I understood it as him referring to the long wait.. Ricoh throwing bread crumbs of 'it is coming just wait a little longer...'

It can feel like a carrot on a stick.

12-09-2017, 03:04 PM   #1427
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I think you could do worse for the time being than a line up composed of some combination of the Irix 15mm, FA 31/43/77, DFA 100 macro WR, DFA 15-30/24-70/28-105/70-20/150-450, DA *200/300. That with a K-1 is probably better than most photographers have had available to them over the years.

I'm sorry, but I am very much enjoying my gear currently and even though it will be nice to see what the new lenses look like, it isn't as though I can't capture decent images now.

For folks who are focused on wildlife and for whom the DFA 150-450 isn't sufficient, it may be time to move on. I really don't see any indication that Pentax is releasing a K3 II sequel or a 150-600 mm lens and the odds of Tamron/Sigma releasing a K mount 600mm lens seem pretty small too. That is one niche that Pentax isn't pursuing at all at this point, as far as I can tell.
12-09-2017, 03:05 PM   #1428
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There is no point releasing an inferior product 6 months earlier than waiting for a little bit and having a superior option. There is no more rapid development of tech and consumer buying of DSLRs, were back to selling to a photography user base. Ricoh has decided that they needed ring type sonic motors to compete and they have to perfect that before they release new lenses! The fact Ricoh is investing so much in tech improvement is a sign the other manufactures should be worried, especially when the others are more exposed by the contraction of the market.

As for the order Ricoh has chosen to release their lenses, it is based not on filling holes but producing the most popular lenses first in order to appeal to the greatest number of photographers. Yes it sucks for the existing user base to some extent but it will also grow camera sales and make pentax successful. Cheaper F4 zooms are covered by APSC performance wise and are not that high a priority when they dont make a budget FF yet.
12-09-2017, 03:38 PM   #1429
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I didn't read that as he was saying it is pathetic that a manufacturer doesn't offer a particular lens. I understood it as him referring to the long wait.. Ricoh throwing bread crumbs of 'it is coming just wait a little longer...'

It can feel like a carrot on a stick.
Looking at the comments from a few threads, a lot of people seems to want a wide prime lens as an alternative to the 15-30mm lens which is heavy. Given the fact that K1 is a landscape orientated camera, I also expected that the first 2 primes released by Ricoh to be the 85mm lens and a wide lens, wider than 50mm. I'm sure that a wide lens will come sooner or later. It seems that it will come a little later than I and others anticipated. If people think that is pathetic or whatever what I wroted in my previous comment, then I think I'm lucky for not seing those comments.

12-09-2017, 03:59 PM   #1430
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I want an ultra wide-angle prime lens as an alternative to the 15-30mm which is heavy.
But feeling miserable that it's not the next lens announced would serve no good. It's not like we have the inside information required to prioritize such products; all we can do is to express our personal wishes in a direction or another.

Dan, 'pathetic' was the exact word used by biz-engineer, and not a reference to something you've written.
12-09-2017, 07:45 PM - 2 Likes   #1431
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Looking at the comments from a few threads, a lot of people seems to want a wide prime lens as an alternative to the 15-30mm lens which is heavy. Given the fact that K1 is a landscape orientated camera, I also expected that the first 2 primes released by Ricoh to be the 85mm lens and a wide lens, wider than 50mm. I'm sure that a wide lens will come sooner or later. It seems that it will come a little later than I and others anticipated.
+1 With the marketing of the K-1 as a 'field camera' and it being (IMHO) one of the best landscape cameras available there appears to be a disconnect in the lens build out. 15-30, 24-70, 70-200 OK those are needed to make the system. But 50mm f/1.4 or 85mm f/1.4? Not really landscape or field camera lenses. How about DFA 20mm f/2.8, or 35mm f/1.4 or DFA 16-35 f/4? Those fit with 'field camera', 85mm f/1.4 is wedding or portrait. Not saying it is not needed, just that marketing and engineering are not talking.

Last edited by jatrax; 12-10-2017 at 11:05 AM. Reason: typo
12-09-2017, 11:46 PM   #1432
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IMO reasons are a lot more simple: when you decide to pull a lens range like DFA*, you don't wanna miss the shot.
Even though modern 50mm are quite different from film era 50s, they probably are still easier to design than WA or UWA lens of same quality.

They may just have chosen security over risks. They can't afford to wait too much though.
12-10-2017, 03:02 AM   #1433
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Just because the K-1 is amazing as a landscape tool, it doesn't mean they shouldn't do, or postpone the 50mm and 85mm. I can't accept any argument in the line of "but nobody would ever want to shoot portraits with Pentax".
All the primes from the roadmap are essential.

12-10-2017, 03:29 AM   #1434
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Eventually they will need to do all of these lenses we are talking about here. I suppose we are more arguing about the order in which they are tackling them as well as the pace. We know from the lens map that they are working on a lot of these lenses. Unfortunately, we probably won't know they are done until they are done.
12-10-2017, 03:52 AM   #1435
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Modern line of fast primes is crucial, end of story. Release order doesn't really matter to me and will be not at all revelant after the realease. Still from my work experience- fast 50mm prime is also first prime one will buy after zoom peroid of his/hers photography or as a standard lens with new FF camera body. I think that new fifty is essential lens for brand recognition and marketing purpouses- both consumer and pro. Sigma 50/1.4A is still a bestseller in pro grade primes. Dozen of them sold over every one or two wider primes in that segment. For wide angle- people tend to get zooms. Legacy glass does not count here, as people tend to buy modern and top od the line luxury goods just becouse they can, not becouse they will squeeze 100%of its performance. For consumer grade lenses, smart move is to make some minor changes and market it as much as possible- in way "new one is better and will make you do better photos", Canon's updated 50/1.8 stm is simply dissapearing from shelves, and still its almost exactly the same performer as the old one, IMO even slower on focusing, still- its silent and that counts for every mom that want a prime to make cute pictures of their sleeping kids etc.
12-10-2017, 04:02 AM   #1436
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Looking at the comments from a few threads, a lot of people seems to want a wide prime lens as an alternative to the 15-30mm lens which is heavy. Given the fact that K1 is a landscape orientated camera, I also expected that the first 2 primes released by Ricoh to be the 85mm lens and a wide lens, wider than 50mm. I'm sure that a wide lens will come sooner or later. It seems that it will come a little later than I and others anticipated. If people think that is pathetic or whatever what I wroted in my previous comment, then I think I'm lucky for not seing those comments.
I think for the moment if you want a wide angle prime, you pretty much have to go with one of the Irix or Samyang lenses that are out there. Truthfully for ultra wide shots, having auto focus is unimportant. I seldom use it with my DA 15 limited on APS-C. Easier just to use hyperfocal focusing or focus using live view.
12-10-2017, 04:23 AM   #1437
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reed Quote
Modern line of fast primes is crucial, end of story. Release order doesn't really matter to me and will be not at all revelant after the realease. Still from my work experience- fast 50mm prime is also first prime one will buy after zoom peroid of his/hers photography or as a standard lens with new FF camera body. I think that new fifty is essential lens for brand recognition and marketing purpouses- both consumer and pro. Sigma 50/1.4A is still a bestseller in pro grade primes. Dozen of them sold over every one or two wider primes in that segment. For wide angle- people tend to get zooms. Legacy glass does not count here, as people tend to buy modern and top od the line luxury goods just becouse they can, not becouse they will squeeze 100%of its performance. For consumer grade lenses, smart move is to make some minor changes and market it as much as possible- in way "new one is better and will make you do better photos", Canon's updated 50/1.8 stm is simply dissapearing from shelves, and still its almost exactly the same performer as the old one, IMO even slower on focusing, still- its silent and that counts for every mom that want a prime to make cute pictures of their sleeping kids etc.
Of course a modern line of lenses is needed for all the DSLR manufacturers, not only for Pentax.

Canon updated the 35mm f1.4L and released 85mm f1.4L with IS. Next year a new 135mm with IS will be released and also the Canon 50mm f1.2L lens (which is 11 years old) will be updated.

After the primes or in between releases, I think some f4 zoom lenses may be comming for Pentax users. Let's just hope that we don't have to wait 5-6 years until we will see those lenses.

Canon 50mm f1.8 STM is sold because on a crop camera the angle of view is 80mm, which is a good focal lenght for moms who want a fast, very cheap and very light lens.

I don't have a 50mm lens because it's an unconfortable focal lenght for me. I like to shoot with 35mm, 85 and 135mm lenses on a full frame. And I use f4 zooms for flexibility and weight.

As Rondec said, the release order is the reason we discuss it and it is a little strange for me the release of the 50mm lens before a wide angle lens given the fact that K1 has a lot of features for a landscape users and an 85mm + an wide lens would have covered weedings, portraits and landscapes in the same time. But, Irix 15mm and Pentax 15-30mm will do it very well until Pentax will release a new wide lens.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 12-10-2017 at 04:33 AM.
12-10-2017, 04:51 AM   #1438
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Do we have any of the information used by Ricoh Imaging to prioritize those lenses? No?
Is there any way of changing these priorities? No?
Then this discussion is pointless.

There are simply too many unknown factors. Maybe we're wrong and the 50 and 85 are higher volumes - speaking of which, I was surprised at the very low initial production volume for the D FA 15-30, a mere 200 units per month. Maybe there are some challenges associated with these wide angle lenses that need time to overcome. Maybe they decided on a specification change for the wide and ultra wide, because of some factors unknown to us (and yes, those lenses switched the "large aperture" label between them).
We should not assume we know better and can do a better job than them, when we know less than John Snow.

Otherwise, Ricoh Imaging has a roadmap that makes a lot of sense - even though it won't solve all of our demands. And this DFA* 85mm f/1.4 is particularly compelling.

Last edited by Kunzite; 12-10-2017 at 04:56 AM.
12-10-2017, 06:06 AM   #1439
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My guess is just that they think the 50 and 85 are easier focal lengths to do well and refine their manufacturing techniques on. Clearly they will need to have tighter tolerances and better Quality Control for the DFA * primes than even for the DA/FA limiteds. The design process is only part of what they are working on right now.

At the same time, I doubt we will see more than a couple of top end lenses per year with a variable aperture zoom or two thrown in for good measure.
12-10-2017, 07:29 AM   #1440
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My guess is just that they think the 50 and 85 are easier focal lengths to do well and refine their manufacturing techniques on. Clearly they will need to have tighter tolerances and better Quality Control for the DFA * primes than even for the DA/FA limiteds. The design process is only part of what they are working on right now.

At the same time, I doubt we will see more than a couple of top end lenses per year with a variable aperture zoom or two thrown in for good measure.
And honestly that'll be all most of us need. Once the standard 15 lenses, some 2.8, some ƒ4. and some variable aperture are out, 5 years from now if they can keep doing 3 a year all the angst will be forgotten. I feel sorry for the guys who got sucked in by the low buy in price and are now waiting for lens availability. The K-1 is the value FF, but it doesn't yet have the lens support of even it's newest competitors. But if I got a contract to do some work, and it was a decent size, I could buy what ever I needed. It might be bigger than I'd like, it's might be more expensive than I'd like, but it's there. And as soon as it makes economic sense, I can buy it. That's all that matters tome. I may not buy it, but I could if push came to shove.

That's a peace of mind issue, and Pentax addressed it nicely.

Last edited by normhead; 12-10-2017 at 09:10 AM.
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