[monochrome]

Actually, Pentax started falling behind in the 1980s. It was the falling behind that led to their inability to stay in business and got them sold.

They looked at the Return on Equity in the camera business (8%), compared to related optics businesses (eyeglass lenses, medical equipment, even Real Estate, etc. @ 20%) and decided to invest the massive SMC licensing cash flow in diverse, higher return businesses. Cameras and lenses became a cash cow.

Canon, OTOH, took it's massive cash flow from copier and laser printer Imaging Engine licenses (every HP Laser Printer sold earned a fee for Canon) and invested in Pro video and built a massive, high volume, low margin consumer products business. It was only coincidentally a camera products business. Nikon had access to Mitsubishi capital to compete; Minolta made AF work - then, Sony used consumer product cash flow to buy Minolta (another 8% business with some patents and tech), their sensor fab expertise, and mortgaged the company to dominate sensors. Mirrorless to Sony is a manufacturing process technology looking for a product to exploit with it.

No one knew about Smartphones. Smartphones captured the cash flow that supported all these companies' existing businesses. The iPhone was first released about the same time as the K20D, to buy the disruption in context.

Pentax is no longer a cash cow - but it surely isn't a growth business in a high RoE category. Theta (and commercial applications) has the potential to be huge If Ricoh should choose to invest as much money in Pentax as they appear to invest in Theta we might not be having this discussion, but apparently Pentax is largely required to be self-funding, reinvesting it's profits in itself. That means we'll get lenses one at a time, when they have the money to develop and produce them - not before.

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Last edited by monochrome; 09-20-2017 at 08:21 PM.

[surfar]

we'll get lenses one at a time

Well,perhaps?...but 15-30,24-70,28-105 came in a burst...and they had to,so i'm guessing that some primes(its the Year of!)will follow suit.

They may not come all on the same day of course,though i expect 35/50/85 to join the DFA 100 in a short period....when that period comes along????Only insiders have any idea of the secret Ricoh business!

[mecrox]

They looked at the Return on Equity in the camera business (8%), compared to related optics businesses (eyeglass lenses, medical equipment, even Real Estate, etc. @ 20%) and decided to invest the massive SMC licensing cash flow in diverse, higher return businesses. Cameras and lenses became a cash cow.

Canon, OTOH, took it's massive cash flow from copier and laser printer Imaging Engine licenses (every HP Laser Printer sold earned a fee for Canon) and invested in Pro video and built a massive, high volume, low margin consumer products business. It was only coincidentally a camera products business. Nikon had access to Mitsubishi capital to compete; Minolta made AF work - then, Sony used consumer product cash flow to buy Minolta (another 8% business with some patents and tech), their sensor fab expertise, and mortgaged the company to dominate sensors. Mirrorless to Sony is a manufacturing process technology looking for a product to exploit with it.

No one knew about Smartphones. Smartphones captured the cash flow that supported all these companies' existing businesses. The iPhone was first released about the same time as the K20D, to buy the disruption in context.

Pentax is no longer a cash cow - but it surely isn't a growth business in a high RoE category. Theta (and commercial applications) has the potential to be huge If Ricoh should choose to invest as much money in Pentax as they appear to invest in Theta we might not be having this discussion, but apparently Pentax is largely required to be self-funding, reinvesting it's profits in itself. That means we'll get lenses one at a time, when they have the money to develop and produce them - not before.

Lol, so the plan is there is no plan 'cos there is no money? That's a choice, though, because not a necessity. Could be true but not sure I believe it myself. The same set of events could be explained as conflicted circumstances: Ricoh are unsure whether they should continue to invest in DSLRs because their analysts are increasingly pointing towards mirrorless cameras, targeted specials like Theta and smartphone add-ons as a better basis for staying in consumer electronics, if to stay in them at all, so it is hiatus time Alternatively, they are waiting to release several products together next year.

I do wonder whether Canon and Nikon, especially, but also Sony are in cameras by accident, as if they could as easily have been in anything else.That's not how their leading officers appear to see it. Canon and Nikon appear to be very proud of the long optical heritage each has built over the decades. Not nearly so true of Sony, of course, though also very true of Pentax and of others like Fuji or Olympus. The money trail tells one story, but what actually motivates the troops to make it tells another.

[normhead]

The Ricoh CEO of the time explained it when Ricoh bought Pentax, He said they wanted to get back the DSLR business. Almost like it was a luxury purchase. Of course, that CEO is now gone. But at least I have my K-1.

[kenspo]

The Ricoh CEO of the time explained it when Ricoh bought Pentax, He said they wanted to get back the DSLR business. Almost like it was a luxury purchase. Of course, that CEO is now gone. But at least I have my K-1.

Do you really think that is a one man decision?

[Mistral75]

Do you really think that is a one man's decision?

When Shiro Kondo was the President and CEO of Ricoh (April 2007 - March 2013), yes it was.

[Winder]

Ricoh is showing signs of being committed to imaging. They have increased advertising in professional publications and they have upgraded the Ricoh imaging showrooms in Japan. Now that Ricoh sees that there is a good market for a quality FF system, I hope they increase investment. The life span of quality glass is very long. The FA Limited lenses were introduced in the late 1990's/early 2000's. Over the last 18 years I would like to think that those lenses have recovered the initial R&D costs and have been making money for the last 15 years. If Pentax had a FF body for all those years they probably would have sold more FA Limited lenses and made more money.

I'm hoping Ricoh sees the market for an upgraded K-1 Super. Simply by improving the C-AF and the overall speed of the camera they would drastically improve the appeal of the camera. No modern camera should be able to fill the buffer when set on the lowest drive setting. The buffer should be large enough and the write speed fast enough to keep up with the lowest drive setting. The K-1 doesn't even write fast enough to take advantage of fast UHS-1 cards much less UHS-2 or QXD cards. I don't expect anything industry leading like dual QXD card slots, but UHS-2 should be the minimum on the flagship model at this point. I've been crossing my fingers hoping that Ricoh is slow to release the D-FA* 50mm F/1.4 so that they can release it with an updated body. This would move a lot of K-1s to the used market and that would increase demand for FF glass. Ricoh needs a shorter upgrade cycle for the first couple of bodies.

[normhead]

Do you really think that is a one man decision?

As noted, my impression was based on the press release at the time... and yours in based on what?

My comment at the time pointed out it sounded like a nostalgic purchase by an old man seeking to relive the good old days. Nothing I've seen since has shown it to be anything different. We also have reports of a meeting where the cost of bringing Pentax back up to Canon/Nikon levels of exposure in the market place. It was in the billions and Ricoh passed on it. Now you have a CEO who's plan is to invest less and ride out the storm, investing only the returns on the years sales. Divisions have been advised not to pursue new market share. Imagine where Apple would be if they'd gone to such a shell and never funded research of the iPhone and you understand the position that represents.

When Shiro Kondo was the President and CEO of Ricoh (April 2007 - March 2013), yes it was.

That was my impression too.

Given the current CEO's position, one could speculate that the 50 and 85 1.4s are slow coming to market because the general public isn't buying enough Pentax product. I see this as a completely unreasonable position in terms of company growth. If you set growth targets and fail, you probably still grow a bit, just not as much as you wanted. If you're treading water and fail, you go under.

[Belnan]

Lightest in its class: Tamron announces new 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 Di VC USD full-frame telephoto zoom

Its too bad Ricoh doesnt own tamron too they seem to be rolling them out.

[normhead]

Lightest in its class: Tamron announces new 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 Di VC USD full-frame telephoto zoom

Its too bad Ricoh doesnt own tamron too they seem to be rolling them out.

Just because Ricoh owned Tamron still wouldn't mean they could necessarily make money selling to K-mount buyers. It's not about who owns it, it's about value of sales.

I always wonder in cases like this if Pentax asking people to scrape up a few more pennies for the 150-450 is a good thing.

At 1.114 grams it's only a little heavier than my 60-250, and close to half the weight of the 150-450, it's certainly has place in the market. IF I put the 1.4 TC on my 60-250 I've got 350mm 5.6 for about the same weight... nothing to see here.

---------- Post added 09-21-17 at 11:28 AM ----------

Ricoh is showing signs of being committed to imaging. They have increased advertising in professional publications and they have upgraded the Ricoh imaging showrooms in Japan. Now that Ricoh sees that there is a good market for a quality FF system, I hope they increase investment. The life span of quality glass is very long. The FA Limited lenses were introduced in the late 1990's/early 2000's. Over the last 18 years I would like to think that those lenses have recovered the initial R&D costs and have been making money for the last 15 years. If Pentax had a FF body for all those years they probably would have sold more FA Limited lenses and made more money.

I'm hoping Ricoh sees the market for an upgraded K-1 Super. Simply by improving the C-AF and the overall speed of the camera they would drastically improve the appeal of the camera. No modern camera should be able to fill the buffer when set on the lowest drive setting. The buffer should be large enough and the write speed fast enough to keep up with the lowest drive setting. The K-1 doesn't even write fast enough to take advantage of fast UHS-1 cards much less UHS-2 or QXD cards. I don't expect anything industry leading like dual QXD card slots, but UHS-2 should be the minimum on the flagship model at this point. I've been crossing my fingers hoping that Ricoh is slow to release the D-FA* 50mm F/1.4 so that they can release it with an updated body. This would move a lot of K-1s to the used market and that would increase demand for FF glass. Ricoh needs a shorter upgrade cycle for the first couple of bodies.

It would be nice if the sales of K-1 suggested the possibility of selling an upgraded version, my guess would be for every 10 buying a K-1 which is cheap enough to be a consumer camera, they'd sell maybe 1 K-1 Super at say $500 more. I doubt the numbers are there.

It's always about the numbers. Pentax has become the champion of the great image quality but lacking in other features category. That being true, there's not much chance their user base will support better features at more money, when they can just buy a D850 and have it all tomorrow.

The question then becomes, 'if Pentax made a camera like a D850 at the same price as a D850 would they get any additional sales from it, or would it just be the same old K-1 user base, with a few buying the new upgraded camera instead of a K-1?

[eurostar]

When Canon and Nikon openly talk about how to enter the "serious" mirrorless market, how can we imagine Ricoh investing in lenses that could be obsolete in just a few years? For me, we are in the same limbo Sony was between the failure of the Alpha 900 and the success of their mirrorless line.

[normhead]

When Canon and Nikon openly talk about how to enter the "serious" mirrorless market, how can we imagine Ricoh investing in lenses that could be obsolete in just a few years? For me, we are in the same limbo Sony was between the failure of the Alpha 900 and the success of their mirrorless line.

Because those of us who don't want mirrorless could care less what Canon and Nikon are thinking about. We aren't potential mirrorless customers. Your analysis is messed up by the fact that Sony pioneered mirrorless and still does. Canon and Nikon are hoping to win back some lost market share by playing "me too." IN Pentax's position being the 6th and smallest to enter the fray just doesn't make any sense.

Now if they'd done a Sony and gone that way first, maybe we'd be talking. That train left the station long ago. Pentax is just not a terribly innovative company these days, and as far as I can tell, can't compete with the big boys in so very many aspects of evolving technology. Their niche is not being innovative, but in exploiting existing technologies to provide the best bang for the buck. Under Ricoh's new CEO, that's not going to change.

Pentax will enter mirrorless when they can patch together existing technologies at a great price. Why do people keep dreaming about them becoming some kind of innovative pioneers and way out in front of the game? You get the impression froth statements of their CEO that increasing market share might win his disapproval as he's more interested in return on investment this year, than a long term plan. Ricoh and Pentax are in a holding pattern with no plan to refuel unless the existing passengers pay for the fuel.

When it comes right down to it, I like Pentax because I'm cheap. If they get all premium, I won't like them anymore.

Premium IQ at bargain basement prices, that's what I like.

There are no deficiencies to Pentax gear that a bit of photographic training can't overcome.

And I already devoted a year of my life, and paid for the training.

People keep writing "Pentax should invest in this, Pentax should invest in that." Ricoh has made it clear, they aren't looking for investment opportunities.

[Zygonyx]

Good news : DFA*50 and 85/1.4 shall come within a short time-frame in 2018's first quarter.

[normhead]

Good news : DFA*50 and 85/1.4 shall come within a short time-frame in 2018's first quarter.

I hope every one is saving their pennies. If these sell out fast, early in the year, and keep selling, that's what will tell Pentax they should invest in more lenses. If the big spenders who demand this type of lens let us down, we're all doomed. Money to develop more utilitarian lenses is being held hostage by these lenses.

NO pressure... big spenders.

[Kunzite]

Good news : DFA*50 and 85/1.4 shall come within a short time-frame in 2018's first quarter.

Both? In February they were unsure about the 85mm... that's good news. (*)
Is this solid info?

(*) Except I won't be able to buy both at once.