[biz-engineer]

With regards to the DFA84 Pentax not coming soon, I spent a little money on a special offer for a Samy 85 1.4 , I'm glad I did that, it's nice to gain some experience with it, it renders nicely on K1. The day Ricoh release their DFA85, if it is such a good lens as expected, I'd the Samy to help pay for the DFA85. Others will have a FA77ltd or Sigma or some other manual focus 85mm. I don't know if there is other than Samyang 85 1.4 for similar price but a bit better optically.

[normhead]

The day Ricoh release their DFA85, if it is such a good lens as expected, I'd the Samy to help pay for the DFA85

Or you could give it to me for Christmas.

[Kunzite]

Nice try, but I'm not going off topic again by providing facts that you don't have to be a silver or a gold client at a particular store so that you can rent a 5D Mark IV for example or a lot of L lenses. And I'm not even look for the image that I took when I was at a Canon meeting were Canon Romania has brought all the lenses that the participants asked for (I think only the 800mm and the 600mm lenses were missing because they were sent to a wildlife photographer that went on a european tour).

It's not a "nice try", but a fact that I don't have access to the rental section of that particular store - I don't even know what they're offering. And other places I know of, don't really have what I'd want to buy. But this isn't really about me - the point is, not everyone have the option of renting many/most of the possible choices.
A "meeting" where you can briefly test some equipment is not the same.

Note that I'm not looking for an argument, I even named the idea of extensively testing before buying excellent - I wouldn't say so if I didn't believe it. I merely added a caveat: whenever possible.
It's not like a week long testing session would've helped Normhead decide he'd rather skip the K-1 anyway, if I understand his situation correctly.

[Rondec]

Rentals are not necessarily worth it, depending on the situation. Looking at it, you will spend about 10 percent the cost of a lens, plus shipping in order to rent a lens. If you are sure you want the lens, you are better off just buying from a company like Amazon with a liberal return policy.

[normhead]

Rentals are not necessarily worth it, depending on the situation. Looking at it, you will spend about 10 percent the cost of a lens, plus shipping in order to rent a lens. If you are sure you want the lens, you are better off just buying from a company like Amazon with a liberal return policy.

Buy and return is Henry''s policy. You have a week or two to send it back for a refund. No rental fee is charged. That's their answer for not having items in the store to test. I have twice before returned items I had for a week, for a full refund. I just call them up before the dead line and tell them it's coming back, put it in the mail, and when it gets there they refund my credit card.

[Dan Rentea]

A "meeting" where you can briefly test some equipment is not the same.

You're confusing the meetings. I came to your Pentax meetings for 2 years and it's the same each time. 8-12 people are gathering at the same restaurant and the main preocupation is drinking and eating. The cameras and lenses of the participants are shown on the table and you have the chance to briefly put you hands on that gear. This can't even be called a briefly test of equipment. And I remember that each year I told you that I can help organise some photo meetings by providing:
- one of my large training rooms or even a studio
- a lot of flashes and modifiers
- professional models
- a known photographer who can provide trips and tricks

When I realised that you're not interested in such meetings were we can:
- put to test our lenses and cameras
- photograph and socialise in the same time
- test flashes and triggers
- etc.
I stopped coming to your Pentax meetings.

But since you're so sure about what you talk here, let me ask you something: have you ever went to a Canon or to a Nikon meeting? It's a one day or 2 days meeting with a theme. If we want to shoot wildlife, Canon or Nikon provides tele lenses, from the cheap ones to the big and expensive ones. If the theme of the meeting is city landscape, then Canon or Nikon provide wide angle lenses and fisheye lenses. A full day or 2 full days of shooting in real life conditions is not the same with putting a lens on a camera and take a few shots in a restaurant until the food is coming.

And speaking of F64, have you ever organise a meeting and went to F64 and ask for Canon or Nikon lenses/cameras? I have organised a few this year and F64 was always open to discussions. And have you ever walked into F64 store, showing them your portfolio and ask for a camera or for a lens to test for 1-2-3-5 days and in exchange write a short review with your experience in testing the gear you wanted?

As I said, only if you don't want to test something from Canon or Nikon you can't.

---------- Post added 11-24-17 at 08:25 AM ----------

Rentals are not necessarily worth it, depending on the situation. Looking at it, you will spend about 10 percent the cost of a lens, plus shipping in order to rent a lens. If you are sure you want the lens, you are better off just buying from a company like Amazon with a liberal return policy.

Let me tell you my gear and see if it makes sense for you my arguments based on the country I live. I shoot with 5D Mark IV and the following lenses:

- Canon 16-35mm f4L IS (light, excelent in terms of optics, good build); it's excelent for landscape, corporate events and large indoor portraits with flash
- Canon 35mm f2 IS (light, very good optically from f2.8, good build); I can do a corporate event or a wedding only with this lens
- Canon 85mm f1.8 (very nice lens for the price)
- Canon 135mm f2L (one of the best portrait lenses, at half the weight of 70-200mm f2.8)
- Canon 70-200mm f4L IS (the most used lens I own, incredible versatile, light, superb in terms of optics)

I was testing 16-35mm f2.8L lens side by side with 16-35mm f4 and 35mm f2 lenses. I was also testing 70-200mm f2.8L IS lens side by side with 70-200mm f4L IS and 135mm f2L lenses.

How much it would have cost me to buy all this gear and return most of the lenses after 4-5 days? Initially I really wanted to buy 16-35mm f2.8L lens and also the 70-200mm f2.8L lens, but after shooting in my normal shooting conditions with all the above lenses, I realised that I don't need the f2.8 lenses at all. I didn't saved money by buying the other lenses. But I have excelent optical lenses now at half the weight. Yes, I've spent 280$ on renting all the lenses from above just to make sure I made the right choice. 2 days of renting a lens costs between 12$ and 30$.

I don't need to buy a fisheye, a macro lens or a wildlife lens because I preffer to rent these lenses on the few occasions that I need them. I had the wildlife lenses this year rented for 30 days for 300$. Assuming that I was shooting with Pentax, the DFA 150-450mm costs 2400$. This means 8 years of shooting with a rent lens. And the benefit of renting is that today I can rent a Sigma 150-600mm, tomorow I can rent a Canon 100-400mm and the day after tomorow I can rent a 300mm f2.8 lens, which is a lens that cost more than 6000$.

[beholder3]

You have a week or two to send it back for a refund. No rental fee is charged. That's their answer for not having items in the store to test.

And that is exactly the logic which has been made a law in the EU. Online retailers have an unfair advantge over b&m stores by not needing demo items so they have to accept 14 days returns without any cost to the consumer and the consumer doesnt have to give any reason for the return.

How much it would have cost me to buy all this gear and return most of the lenses after 4-5 days?

Zero cost anywhere in the EU.

If you bought a good or a service online or outside of a shop (by telephone, mail order, from a door-to-door salesperson), you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and with no justification.

Guarantees, cancelling and returning your purchases - Your Europe
That is much, much better than the rip off rental fees you quoted.

You just try argue for a broader statement but still you use a single extremely niche cherry picked scenario. Sorry, that is nowhere convincing or relevant.

It can be countered easily by just requiring to shoot astro images with a 85mm F1.4 lens over 30 seconds without startrails and without having to buy or drag along extra tools because you need it while hiking. Sadly Canon is behind the curve here it is completely unbearable. Their camera lineup is lagging. Their lenses are lagging. That is a undisputable fact. Quite easy to create a dozen more scenarios, where Canon (or any other maker) can not compete at all.
That is why all those makers exist: because for different user requirements one is better than the other and none is overall better than the others.

Be happy if you believe you made a good choice. Just don't assume others' judgement is the same. They might smile and think "Oh, boy what a step down the poor guy made by mistake".

---------- Post added 24th Nov 2017 at 11:16 ----------

Nobody seems to be saying Pentax has to do good quality ƒ4 and variable aperture glass like Canon and Nikon.

I'd buy a compact (see the old glass) DFA 24mm F2.8 any time.
The 50/1.4 or 85/1.4 clunky toys? Not. And this is not just lip service, since as a dual system shooter I could have bought the Sigma variants of those type of lenses long ago, but they just dont cut it for me for more than one quality reason.
People have differing requirements.

[Rondec]

You're confusing the meetings. I came to your Pentax meetings for 2 years and it's the same each time. 8-12 people are gathering at the same restaurant and the main preocupation is drinking and eating. The cameras and lenses of the participants are shown on the table and you have the chance to briefly put you hands on that gear. This can't even be called a briefly test of equipment. And I remember that each year I told you that I can help organise some photo meetings by providing:
- one of my large training rooms or even a studio
- a lot of flashes and modifiers
- professional models
- a known photographer who can provide trips and tricks

When I realised that you're not interested in such meetings were we can:
- put to test our lenses and cameras
- photograph and socialise in the same time
- test flashes and triggers
- etc.
I stopped coming to your Pentax meetings.

But since you're so sure about what you talk here, let me ask you something: have you ever went to a Canon or to a Nikon meeting? It's a one day or 2 days meeting with a theme. If we want to shoot wildlife, Canon or Nikon provides tele lenses, from the cheap ones to the big and expensive ones. If the theme of the meeting is city landscape, then Canon or Nikon provide wide angle lenses and fisheye lenses. A full day or 2 full days of shooting in real life conditions is not the same with putting a lens on a camera and take a few shots in a restaurant until the food is coming.

And speaking of F64, have you ever organise a meeting and went to F64 and ask for Canon or Nikon lenses/cameras? I have organised a few this year and F64 was always open to discussions. And have you ever walked into F64 store, showing them your portfolio and ask for a camera or for a lens to test for 1-2-3-5 days and in exchange write a short review with your experience in testing the gear you wanted?

As I said, only if you don't want to test something from Canon or Nikon you can't.

---------- Post added 11-24-17 at 08:25 AM ----------



Let me tell you my gear and see if it makes sense for you my arguments based on the country I live. I shoot with 5D Mark IV and the following lenses:

- Canon 16-35mm f4L IS (light, excelent in terms of optics, good build); it's excelent for landscape, corporate events and large indoor portraits with flash
- Canon 35mm f2 IS (light, very good optically from f2.8, good build); I can do a corporate event or a wedding only with this lens
- Canon 85mm f1.8 (very nice lens for the price)
- Canon 135mm f2L (one of the best portrait lenses, at half the weight of 70-200mm f2.8)
- Canon 70-200mm f4L IS (the most used lens I own, incredible versatile, light, superb in terms of optics)

I was testing 16-35mm f2.8L lens side by side with 16-35mm f4 and 35mm f2 lenses. I was also testing 70-200mm f2.8L IS lens side by side with 70-200mm f4L IS and 135mm f2L lenses.

How much it would have cost me to buy all this gear and return most of the lenses after 4-5 days? Initially I really wanted to buy 16-35mm f2.8L lens and also the 70-200mm f2.8L lens, but after shooting in my normal shooting conditions with all the above lenses, I realised that I don't need the f2.8 lenses at all. I didn't saved money by buying the other lenses. But I have excelent optical lenses now at half the weight. Yes, I've spent 280$ on renting all the lenses from above just to make sure I made the right choice. 2 days of renting a lens costs between 12$ and 30$.

I don't need to buy a fisheye, a macro lens or a wildlife lens because I preffer to rent these lenses on the few occasions that I need them. I had the wildlife lenses this year rented for 30 days for 300$. Assuming that I was shooting with Pentax, the DFA 150-450mm costs 2400$. This means 8 years of shooting with a rent lens. And the benefit of renting is that today I can rent a Sigma 150-600mm, tomorow I can rent a Canon 100-400mm and the day after tomorow I can rent a 300mm f2.8 lens, which is a lens that cost more than 6000$.

Assuming you (a) are testing one focal length at a time and (b) you aren't damaging the gear when you are testing it and (c) you are using a credit card to pay for items then the cost would only be for the lens/lenses you decided to keep. You have the lenses for four or five days shoot them. Return the ones that don't work for you and your work is done.

To me, renting makes the most sense for really high dollar lenses that you don't use very often. Super telephoto for a trip or something like that, but for what you are describing I wouldn't waste the money to rent lenses.

[Kunzite]

Dan, once again you're getting personal just because I don't fully and unconditionally subscribe to your idea. Relax; I'm on your side in this matter - except that I won't make it an absolute requirement, thus limiting my choices.
Unless your message is: stop buying Pentax, and get Canon, Nikon or Sony instead.

Just to answer your accusations, but I hope you'll end it here.
The meetings I'm organizing are for socializing; I told you that I am interested in a workshop-type meeting but I cannot organize it myself. You said you could; there was no follow-up.
I was also interested, even insisting in going with you, Razvan and others for birding.

In theory I could become a renowned pro and get brands to sponsor me. If only I wanted it... :roleyes:

L.E. This is from when I almost managed to catch you guys.

[Dan Rentea]

Dan, once again you're getting personal just because I don't fully and unconditionally subscribe to your idea. Relax; I'm on your side in this matter - except that I won't make it an absolute requirement, thus limiting my choices.
Unless your message is: stop buying Pentax, and get Canon, Nikon or Sony instead.

Just to answer your accusations, but I hope you'll end it here.
The meetings I'm organizing are for socializing; I told you that I am interested in a workshop-type meeting but I cannot organize it myself. You said you could; there was no follow-up.
I was also interested, even insisting in going with you and Razvan for birding.

In theory I could become a renowned pro and get brands to sponsor me. If only I wanted it... :roleyes:

As I said, we live in 2 different worlds and unless you provide facts when you participate to discussions (or at least some pictures to see if you're just a forum guy or a photographer), for me it's not worth the effort in talking to you. Call it personal or whatever, but I'm tired of listening how you are interested in doing things, but only on paper. On paper you wanted an workshop-type meeting, on paper you wanted to come to photograph birds, on paper you are good at doing things. We on the other hand (yes, Pentax shooters also) are actually do the stuff you wrote about here that you want to do. Finding excuses for each thing that you "can't do" for me it's funny, at least. Even with the non existing support of Pentax in Romania and I was still able to test K1 with the new lenses and apreciate the improvements that Ricoh has done. When you really want to do something, fell free to contact me. I'm always open to any kind of idea that involve shooting and socialising at the same time. Until then, let's make a service for everybody and start ignore each other in topics. This will be my last comment to you in PentaxForum until I see that you are actually start to do the things you're talking about.

---------- Post added 11-24-17 at 11:51 AM ----------

Assuming you (a) are testing one focal length at a time and (b) you aren't damaging the gear when you are testing it and (c) you are using a credit card to pay for items then the cost would only be for the lens/lenses you decided to keep. You have the lenses for four or five days shoot them. Return the ones that don't work for you and your work is done.

To me, renting makes the most sense for really high dollar lenses that you don't use very often. Super telephoto for a trip or something like that, but for what you are describing I wouldn't waste the money to rent lenses.

So, you say that I have to pay each time:
- 4500$ to buy 3 lenses and see which one is the best for me
or
- 3.000 - 4.000$ for a 5D Mark IV/5DsR, etc. to see if it fits my needs, even if I have the option to return that gear after 4-5 days and get my money back? If I tell this to Pentax users or if I and another 3-4 friends of mine will do this if we want to play with Pentax products again, Pentax dealer will be out of business in 3 weeks.

On a serious note, with lenses maybe I can do that, but not with cameras. There is a buying rule that say if you have more than 300 actuations taken with a camera, you can't return it and get all your money back because it can't be sell anymore as new. So, renting for me is the best option.

If there were 3 or 4 Pentax full frame on the market, how would you chose the right one for you? Based on specs and internet reviews?

[Kunzite]

As I said, we live in 2 different worlds and unless you provide facts when you participate to discussions (or at least some pictures to see if you're just a forum guy or a photographer), for me it's not worth the effort in talking to you.

I have to provide facts that face to face discussions between us happened? Oh, boy.
Please, make it the last personal comment about me. Nobody wants to see this, and I merely stated that limiting your choices is not always a good idea.

[Dan Rentea]

I said that I won't go off topic and I did it again. Sorry, I was weak and distracted. Back on topic and ignoring Kunzite, the 85mm focal lenght to me it's the most versatile one for portrait photographers. I have also 135mm f2L lens which I love and I had also the 100mm f2 lens, but I need some space to use them if I want a full body shot for example.
I've tested FA77mm and I had the DA70mm (I found it to be better at focusing than FA77mm) which I liked for the weight and optics, but an 85mm f1.4 it's different and I think it's going to be a very nice lens for Pentax users if will be a fast focusing lens, sharp from f1.4, without cromathic aberation and with WR. And looking at the lenses release by Ricoh since K1 came into market, they have the knowledge to make this 85mm lens one that will be a must have for the portrait photographers.

[ffking]

but an 85mm f1.4 it's different and I think it's going to be a very nice lens for Pentax users if will be a fast focusing lens, sharp from f1.4, without cromathic aberation and with WR. And looking at the lenses release by Ricoh since K1 came into market, they have the knowledge to make this 85mm lens one that will be a must have for the portrait photographers.

roll on next Black Friday (or maybe the one after)

[Wheatfield]

For any system, there will be individuals whose needs aren't met in a satisfactory manner.

For proof of this, one only needs to read the whining on DPR's Nikon and Canon forums.
The more we have the less happy we are.

[Rondec]

As I said, we live in 2 different worlds and unless you provide facts when you participate to discussions (or at least some pictures to see if you're just a forum guy or a photographer), for me it's not worth the effort in talking to you. Call it personal or whatever, but I'm tired of listening how you are interested in doing things, but only on paper. On paper you wanted an workshop-type meeting, on paper you wanted to come to photograph birds, on paper you are good at doing things. We on the other hand (yes, Pentax shooters also) are actually do the stuff you wrote about here that you want to do. Finding excuses for each thing that you "can't do" for me it's funny, at least. Even with the non existing support of Pentax in Romania and I was still able to test K1 with the new lenses and apreciate the improvements that Ricoh has done. When you really want to do something, fell free to contact me. I'm always open to any kind of idea that involve shooting and socialising at the same time. Until then, let's make a service for everybody and start ignore each other in topics. This will be my last comment to you in PentaxForum until I see that you are actually start to do the things you're talking about.

---------- Post added 11-24-17 at 11:51 AM ----------



So, you say that I have to pay each time:
- 4500$ to buy 3 lenses and see which one is the best for me
or
- 3.000 - 4.000$ for a 5D Mark IV/5DsR, etc. to see if it fits my needs, even if I have the option to return that gear after 4-5 days and get my money back? If I tell this to Pentax users or if I and another 3-4 friends of mine will do this if we want to play with Pentax products again, Pentax dealer will be out of business in 3 weeks.

On a serious note, with lenses maybe I can do that, but not with cameras. There is a buying rule that say if you have more than 300 actuations taken with a camera, you can't return it and get all your money back because it can't be sell anymore as new. So, renting for me is the best option.

If there were 3 or 4 Pentax full frame on the market, how would you chose the right one for you? Based on specs and internet reviews?

Somehow you missed my about only paying for the gear you keep. Yes, there is a charge on your credit card for 4500, but if you are returning the lenses you don't keep in the week's time that you mentioned, then the charge for those lenses will be removed from your credit card. At least that's the way it works in the United States. I suppose Romania could be different.

On camera bodies, I do rely on my own experience combined with online reviews. I guess I am fortunate that I shoot Pentax as there are fewer options and I can tell pretty quickly if I will connect with a camera or not.

I will say that in many places world wide, there is no such thing as a camera store. I don't have one within two hours drive of my home. The easiest thing here is to use B and H or Adorama or Amazon for gear that I expect to buy anyway. I have rented long lenses a couple of times (there are several places in the US that do rent), but I found it a waste of money for any lens that I expected to buy eventually.