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05-14-2018, 02:33 AM - 1 Like   #1471
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
The problem is not the roadmap. IIRC they published a very generic one just after the release of the K-1. Since then the horizon of the roadmap has been kept well beyond the immediate future.
Formally there are no deadlines that haven't been met. The real issue is the credibility of Ricoh/Pentax as top quality independent lens maker.
From the very little we know, and using some common sense based on actual incontrovertible facts, it's quite obvious that Hoya zeroed the optical design department.
Knowhow comes from the experience of human beings. Intellectual property (like patents) is not as important.
If you fire engineers and technicians, rebuilding on the ashes is not easy nor quick.
Some great optical designers of the past were visionary geniuses. Fortunately today there are powerful computers (and specialistic software), but brilliant, competent minds are still extremely important.
Once I had access to a professional lens design application. Even a complete newbie can calculate a triplet or a tessar, using standard Schott or Hoya optical glasses.
Designing a complex objective comparable to the best designs is a completely different thing.
Some forum users seem to favour the re-release of some of the best film-era optics, with WR, in-lens AF, improved MC, etc. I guess it it would be perfectly feasible, but I'm afraid it would make little sense commercially. When people see the MTF charts, I'm not sure they would not invest their hard-earned money (Pentax optics are not cheap!) in lenses that don't perform at the same level of the competition (or current high-quality third party offerings).
Releasing "good enough" dated designs would be suicidal. People would buy recent second-hand alternatives, or third party ones still available brand new. Both options would be way cheaper.
On the other hand, continuing to outsource basic elements of the lens line-up would be simply crazy, if it's not perceived as a transitional solution. People don't like to buy Pentax branded third party lenses that cost much more than the originals. If that is the path, much better to stick with cameras, concentrating R&D investments on software (AF algorithms are the other weak spot). Other subjects would take care of the optics...
Though I'm quite sure that such choice would not be accepted by the small, loyal user base Pentax is depending on.
Taking into account all that, I guess the only option is to wait and see, without too much complaining
Ideally, Ricoh would need a robust investment in optical R&D, a visionary head designer, and their own little glass foundry. Given the current situation of the market, it's a pipe dream

No complaining, some hope... and a lot of nostalgia.
Even forgetting about the golden age, please check the wave of optical releases across the new century. I'm testing a few of those silver consumer zooms, and I'm absolutely amazed by how such cheap, wobbly, poorly built lenses can perform, even on a high-megapixel full frame sensor.
I didn't expect this kind of optical performance, cause a number of completely new designs were released during a short period, at a time when sales weren't great. Impressive.
I think all of the camera brands out source the blanks they use in their lenses. And I don't think the issue is design either. I think the issue is manufacturing and getting quality control tight enough to make certain the DFA * lenses that make it onto the market are of the highest quality and in sufficient numbers. Pentax's lens engineers can design all the lenses they want, but if the lens assembly lines can't handle the load, then it doesn't mean too much.

05-14-2018, 05:13 AM   #1472
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think all of the camera brands out source the blanks they use in their lenses. (...)
Not all of them:

Crystal clear: Inside Nikon's Hikari Glass factory: Digital Photography Review
05-14-2018, 11:09 AM   #1473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
I had Nikon in mind, and also Leica. They had their own little glass foundry. I don't know about today.
I don't think Zeiss still owns Schott, but I'm sure they have a very close relationship.
Cutting-edge lens designs of the past were made possible by the availability of new optical glass made according to the specs provided by the design team.
Some brands took, and some still take, the matter in their own hands. Others have a privileged relationship with major glass foundries.
Today is arguably less important than in the past, cause there is a huge number of optical glasses, even with extreme refraction and dispersion specs, available to lens makers. Though I guess having glass made in-house still gives a competitive advantage. Other way Nikon, give the current state of the market, would have ditched their own optical glass foundry some time ago...
05-14-2018, 12:51 PM   #1474
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
(...)
I don't think Zeiss still owns Schott, but I'm sure they have a very close relationship.
(...)
Carl Zeiss AG and Schott AG both belong to the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Carl Zeiss foundation).

Canon's subsidiary Canon Optron are producing optical crystal materials such as fluorite and barium fluoride.

05-14-2018, 02:19 PM   #1475
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Carl Zeiss AG and Schott AG both belong to the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Carl Zeiss foundation).

Canon's subsidiary Canon Optron are producing optical crystal materials such as fluorite and barium fluoride.
Good to know.
I thought Schott became a completely separate entity and changed hands. I guess my memory has mixed some other info. Maybe Leitz with Zeiss...
I didn't know anything about Canon Optron. Thank you.
It seems that having privileged access to raw materials is still an important factor.
05-14-2018, 02:39 PM - 1 Like   #1476
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think all of the camera brands out source the blanks they use in their lenses. And I don't think the issue is design either. I think the issue is manufacturing and getting quality control tight enough to make certain the DFA * lenses that make it onto the market are of the highest quality and in sufficient numbers. Pentax's lens engineers can design all the lenses they want, but if the lens assembly lines can't handle the load, then it doesn't mean too much.
I suspect the QC at production volume cause is - their machines are elderly. They aren’t up to modern standards of precision as designed, and are worn to the point that they don’t operate with precision at production speed*. I suspect Ricoh will need to allocate some capital to Equipment before Pentax is able to produce commercial quantities of multiple *-quality lenses simultaneously.

* I suspect this is the problem behind the delay of the *50/1.4.
05-15-2018, 06:51 AM   #1477
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I suspect the QC at production volume cause is - their machines are elderly. They aren’t up to modern standards of precision as designed, and are worn to the point that they don’t operate with precision at production speed*. I suspect Ricoh will need to allocate some capital to Equipment before Pentax is able to produce commercial quantities of multiple *-quality lenses simultaneously.

* I suspect this is the problem behind the delay of the *50/1.4.
How many wild guesses do you need to pack into a statement before it's regarded with the same level of respect as "PENTAX IS DOOMED"? Do you have well sourced information on anything that you just suggested?

05-15-2018, 06:57 AM   #1478
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
How many wild guesses do you need to pack into a statement before it's regarded with the same level of respect as "PENTAX IS DOOMED"? Do you have well sourced information on anything that you just suggested?
Actual and inferred, current and historical, starting with Pentax’ own statement regarding the cause of the delay on the 50/1.4. They themselves said they had a machine failure and can’t make their machine run at production volume with satisfactory precision.

The very first thing RIcoh did, years ago, was buy new evaporators ($1,000,000 per machine) so they could introduce the HD coating on the DA Limiteds. Hoya stripped Pentax assets - all the good stuff - and left a shell of the former company.

You should know I rail against the PID meme, but there‘s no denying Pentax is tiny and requires significant capital investment to enable volume growth. .

FWIW, use of ‘suspect’ denotes this is my careful, informed opinion, not inside information. Nothing I wrote is controversial.

Last edited by monochrome; 05-15-2018 at 07:12 AM.
05-15-2018, 11:26 AM   #1479
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actual and inferred, current and historical, starting with Pentax’ own statement regarding the cause of the delay on the 50/1.4. They themselves said they had a machine failure and can’t make their machine run at production volume with satisfactory precision. ...
To be fair, that in and of itself does not mean "elderly machines." Just inadequate machinery.
05-15-2018, 11:50 AM   #1480
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When the phrase "I suspect" shows up that often I think it's square in the land of guesses.

I'm really hopeful that this lens is as good as they seem to indicate it will be. Old machinery or not.
05-15-2018, 12:02 PM   #1481
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
When the phrase "I suspect" shows up that often I think it's square in the land of guesses.

I'm really hopeful that this lens is as good as they seem to indicate it will be. Old machinery or not.
I don't think anyone is saying that these lenses won't be good. I think (if I can put words in Monochrome's mouth) that we are commenting mainly on why it is taking so long for them to come out, even when the optical design is completed. With the DFA *70-200 there was some problem with the tripod foot and they actually took it back for redesign, but from what I can tell there is nothing like that here, just a situation where it is taking longer than expected to have decent enough inventory of lenses to release them onto the market.

Certainly it is speculating to say that it is old machines causing a slow release, but there is no doubt that this lens is more complex and has higher expectations than any others in Pentax's portfolio, except maybe the DFA *70-200.
05-15-2018, 12:03 PM - 2 Likes   #1482
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikeyBugs95 Quote
To be fair, that in and of itself does not mean "elderly machines." Just inadequate machinery.
Is that a material distinction?

QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
When the phrase "I suspect" shows up that often I think it's square in the land of guesses.

I'm really hopeful that this lens is as good as they seem to indicate it will be. Old machinery or not.
Since they have chosen to run the machines at a pace they trust to be accurate - which they‘ve said - I consider that a testament to their adherence to a ‘highest standard’ target for the lens. I refer to commercial volume production, not final lens quality.

I don’t dispute that I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am. Since I’ve not had a plant tour I used qualified statements. You can interpret that as you will, but this is nothing new, and I have background agreement.
05-15-2018, 01:43 PM   #1483
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actual and inferred, current and historical, starting with Pentax’ own statement regarding the cause of the delay on the 50/1.4. They themselves said they had a machine failure and can’t make their machine run at production volume with satisfactory precision.
Out of genuine curiosity, where did they said that? Any link, as I'd like to check if there was other interesting information?
05-15-2018, 01:47 PM   #1484
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Is that a material distinction?

...

Since I’ve not had a plant tour I used qualified statements. ...
A material distinction? I'm not sure. But unless there are more specific, detailed statements, all we can go on is what we have been given. AFAIK, the reps haven't stated that the machines are old. Just that they were suffering from some failures that caused the machines to not be able to deliver on the expected quality. The only thing we can deduce, more or less definitively, is that the machines being used were inadequate. Could they be old? Sure. But unless we're given more information to suggest that the machines are indeed old, the best we could surmise is that they are somewhat inadequate. We could definitely speculate as to why that is, and being old could definitely be a factor, but it would be pure speculation and would remain an unknown.
05-15-2018, 02:00 PM   #1485
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Out of genuine curiosity, where did they said that? Any link, as I'd like to check if there was other interesting information?
I don’t have a link at hand. It was part of the announcement of the delayed release date. There was considerable discussion on the 50/1.4 thread and to me the subject of a machine failure, that they stated it happened, and waiting to release the lens until they’ve built sufficient ‘release’ inventory is accepted here. I don’t think such is controversial nor unique to me. My only speculation is the age of the machine(s).

.:

Last edited by monochrome; 05-15-2018 at 08:00 PM.
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