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03-25-2017, 12:45 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Based on recent news, seems as though Panasonic isn't such a paragon. At least, it hasn't translated into high volume of sales.
True enough, although they have certainly thrown the kitchen sink at it in the last few months (including weather-sealing and updating lenses):

Panasonic

Pentax

In terms of release time lines/ products in the shop, they seem to have it sorted, though.
I'm curious to see what M43 does next with 20MP on the sensor, but that's a different discussion......

03-26-2017, 02:41 AM - 1 Like   #167
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Yes, that sucks for everyone who's been waiting and needs or wants such a lens right now.

Just wanted to point out that we're talking about Ricoh, the same company that undertook a (perhaps) unprecedented act of necromancy by resurrecting the Pentax full-frame camera project and bringing it to production after 15 years and two different owners. Also, they've been pretty candid that the Q-line is in a holding pattern. One presumes if they're keeping the ultrawide zoom on the roadmap, it's because the plan is still to release it. So, it may be not so much that they will not deliver, but that they may be operating on a very different time scale (geologic?) than everyone's normal expectations, which at this point in time understandably appears like it won't ever happen.

QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
For myself, I think Ricoh is just shooting itself in the foot by leaving a lens for such a long time on the roadmap and not delivering it. I know that several years ago now, I bought a used Sigma 10-20mm F/4-5.6 rather than the Pentax 12-24mm, because I found an inexpensive used copy locally and the roadmap said there was a new DA Wide Zoom coming. It was supposed to be a temporary purchase, and with use I find that the long end of the Sigma (20mm @ F/5.6) is a bit limiting, but Ricoh are still dangling this potential new lens in front of my nose. I've been hoping for 12-28mm, which would really hit the spot for me, especially with something like F/3.5-4.5. The current 12-24mm is just expensive enough that I wouldn't want to spend the money for it only to find a new lens becoming available three months later, so for now I'm just sitting tight. But I have to say I find it annoying that they would keep promising this lens for five years and not deliver it...
03-26-2017, 03:18 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
AFAIK, no matter the brand, you will not find significantly better on APS-C than the lenses you already tested, particulalrly if you want shorter than 10mm. There's some Tokina lenses available in Canon and Nikon mount, but the 12-24 is basically the same as the Pentax 12-24. There's the Tokina 11-20 and 11-16, but if the two Sigma or the Pentax 12-24 and 15Ltd weren't good enough for you, I doubt these Tokina will satisfy you.

If you don't mind manual focus only, the Samyang and Rokinon 10mm are well regarded.

Otherwise, FF is the way to go.
On DSRL, yes, on mirrorless, no there great WA, not too big, high quality and not as expensive as the FF equivalent. Sure the most expensive FF may stay better but for double price body and double price lens, that's to be expected...
03-26-2017, 10:33 PM - 3 Likes   #169
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No long tele :-(

I wish they'd bite the bullet and produce a serious long tele with wide aperture for sport/wildlife, e.g., 500 or 600mm f/4 instead of the ridiculous 560mm broomstick currently on the books (what were they thinking?). Yes, I know that this is a specialised (and therefore not wide market appeal) segment of the lens market but there's nothing, even from the 3rd party manufacturers, like this for PK mount. Sigma's new 500mm f/4 is not available for Pentax :-(

03-27-2017, 12:25 PM - 1 Like   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aussie Quote
I wish they'd bite the bullet and produce a serious long tele with wide aperture for sport/wildlife, e.g., 500 or 600mm f/4 instead of the ridiculous 560mm broomstick currently on the books (what were they thinking?). Yes, I know that this is a specialised (and therefore not wide market appeal) segment of the lens market but there's nothing, even from the 3rd party manufacturers, like this for PK mount. Sigma's new 500mm f/4 is not available for Pentax :-(
Counting the typical price of such lenses, the logic is to select the lens then check the body that is compatible. Your problem is then solved.
03-27-2017, 12:39 PM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Counting the typical price of such lenses, the logic is to select the lens then check the body that is compatible. Your problem is then solved.
That's it. Anyway, due to seasonal birding (3 weeks per year between April and May) , it is not cost effective to own those lenses, there aren't convenient as walkaround lenses for everyday use.. In Hungary, you can rent long lenses for about 60 euros per day and enjoy the performance of a 600 f4 / 10000 euros (Canon) lens. On location , I can get a 1Dx + 600 f4 for no much more, why would anyone spend 15000 for using that gear 3 times a year.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-27-2017 at 12:55 PM.
03-27-2017, 03:54 PM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
seasonal birding (3 weeks per year between April and May)
03-28-2017, 11:38 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's it. Anyway, due to seasonal birding (3 weeks per year between April and May) , it is not cost effective to own those lenses, there aren't convenient as walkaround lenses for everyday use.. In Hungary, you can rent long lenses for about 60 euros per day and enjoy the performance of a 600 f4 / 10000 euros (Canon) lens. On location , I can get a 1Dx + 600 f4 for no much more, why would anyone spend 15000 for using that gear 3 times a year.
Then, just do it and dont complain

---------- Post added 03-28-17 at 08:45 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
True enough, although they have certainly thrown the kitchen sink at it in the last few months (including weather-sealing and updating lenses):

Panasonic

Pentax

In terms of release time lines/ products in the shop, they seem to have it sorted, though.
I'm curious to see what M43 does next with 20MP on the sensor, but that's a different discussion......
Based on recent Japanese press information, next achievement of Panasonic M43 might be to exit the camera market, just like Samsung last year (after having just released one of the most praised mirrorless APS-C camera).

And the sad thing for me is that, besides my Pentax gear I just bought a Panasonic M43 camera an two lenses, for sessions when I want to go very light and small....

---------- Post added 03-28-17 at 09:10 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
Not all.
Whether we like it, or not, we are in a hyper-connected world, and in the race to the bottom (as I am also a cynic about this) means that retailers, and those advertising to (us) expect reliable progress and valid information. Probably not for the better, the world has changed, and speed/specialisation of business, and required capacity to survive and complete stated business has become very important. There are now billions(!) more people in the world, with an elevated capacity to buy (if interested).

I would also agree with you (somewhat) about the mode of transmission, but in the end, it is up to the company to fulfil customer expectations in order to get wallets open. Communication is a good strategy, and positively impacts suppliers picking up and moving product inventory.

Relationships are important (lifetime customer value, and all). A good way to go that is to make sure products identified on Roadmaps are delivered in a timely manner. Not to harp on about Fuji, but they *have* delivered what they set out to do. Ongoing, they have meets where you get to touch and try equipment, that are hosted by knowledgeable people (and those people take product feedback in a formal way). They then implement firmware updates with useful new features, meaning the consumers feel engaged. Awesome, even though their products may not always be the best (although they are certainly good).

I agree the interview questions may have been pointed to current products (moans/needs/wants), but one of the things we are on this forum (whether we realise it, or not) is brand ambassadors. Engaging those who use your products is important, and therefore specific questions are also important.

I agree Nikon (doesn't seem to care), and Sony (through innovation, will immediately move onto the next thing, and strand customers) are similarly affected.

So, while I am (genuinely) pleased to see that new lenses are being announced , the pace and timing of introduction are not solid (Canon and Panasonic do this really well).

The camera market has shrunk, and there is no reason why this collapsus should stop at present level. The mature photo market in the film era was much smaller than the 2016 sales.


The roadmaps announced by manufacturers (any brand) in 2015 are not sustainable anymore.

Hence dont expect manufacturers to act in 2017/2018 like they did before: we will probably see some restructurations in the camera business.


IMO, the digital camera market golden age, when new models succeeded every years lile smartphones, and regularly improved, while being each year cheaper, is over.
There might be some fire sale to clean the shelves, but once they will be over, as R&D will decrease due to shrinking cashflow, new models will probably be delayed and more highly priced to cope for lower sales....

We will have to learn to keep our cameras longer and care more about whet they can do than what the next model could improve.

Just remember:
  • Olympus went close to bankrupt a few years ago
  • Go-pro has fired a large part of its staff
  • Samsung has moved out of the camera market in 2016, though photo geeks said they had designed the most efficient APS-C mirrorless to date.
  • Panasonic seems on the edge of a thorough restructuration of their camera division.
  • Nikon has cancelled its 1" compact line they had announced last year, and just said they will concentrate on high end DSLR
We must rejoice that Ricoh, like Canon, has a large business, and that the Ricoh Imaging division is still profitable.
And go out shooting rather than whining on cameras forums.


Last edited by Tatouzou; 03-28-2017 at 12:12 PM.
03-28-2017, 12:42 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Then, just do it and dont complain
I do it and I don't complain. I don't know what you are referring to.
03-28-2017, 03:17 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I do it and I don't complain. I don't know what you are referring to.
The whole thing about risk mitigation and switching maybe?
03-28-2017, 03:21 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's it. Anyway, due to seasonal birding (3 weeks per year between April and May) , it is not cost effective to own those lenses, there aren't convenient as walkaround lenses for everyday use.. In Hungary, you can rent long lenses for about 60 euros per day and enjoy the performance of a 600 f4 / 10000 euros (Canon) lens. On location , I can get a 1Dx + 600 f4 for no much more, why would anyone spend 15000 for using that gear 3 times a year.
Let's remember that people are perfectly able to get a 600 f/4 and manage perfectly average cropped pictures of ducks/sparrows/squirels at high from their backyard all the year
03-28-2017, 08:33 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Counting the typical price of such lenses, the logic is to select the lens then check the body that is compatible. Your problem is then solved.
True if starting from scratch but with thousands already invested, I don't want to change systems just add the extra lens.
03-28-2017, 10:34 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The whole thing about risk mitigation and switching maybe?
Yes also. My point was to confirm your statement. I think, for large lenses used only occasionally, renting can be a good option (likely why there is a market for lensrental.com)
03-28-2017, 11:47 PM - 1 Like   #179
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So if Pentax wants to attract the pros she has to offer pro glass and that includes long tele primes (like 500/4, 600/4) or even superb zoom teles like the famous 250-600/5.6 monsters as she was offering in the past.

If Pentax doesn't release (or even announce) such a lens soon, it means that either they released a pro FF camera for entousiasts and hobbyists (and in that case K-1 might be an overkill) or leave people that consider switching to Pentax think like biz-engineer. Pentax doesn't provide any long lenses for pros so Pentax is out of question... This is not the way to grow a company though for sure!
03-28-2017, 11:54 PM - 1 Like   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aussie Quote
True if starting from scratch but with thousands already invested, I don't want to change systems just add the extra lens.
We don't speak of a $500 lens but more of a $8000-$15000 lens. The kind of lens that alone cost more than all the other gear you have combined.
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