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03-30-2017, 06:24 AM - 1 Like   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
(...)

How many years ago has it been since they launched a screw drive lens?
All mounts together: 16 months (HD Pentax-D FA 645 35mm f/3.5 AL [IF], November 2015).

K mount, revamped lens: almost three and a half years (HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm f/4-5.8 ED WR, October 2013).

K mount, new lens: four years and 10 months (smc Pentax-DA 50mm f/1.8, May 2012).

Half an eternity in digital world.

03-30-2017, 12:08 PM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
All mounts together: 16 months (HD Pentax-D FA 645 35mm f/3.5 AL [IF], November 2015).

K mount, revamped lens: almost three and a half years (HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm f/4-5.8 ED WR, October 2013).

K mount, new lens: four years and 10 months (smc Pentax-DA 50mm f/1.8, May 2012).

Half an eternity in digital world.
Thanks for the research, Mistral - I hadn't even thought about the 645!
03-30-2017, 11:41 PM - 1 Like   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpit Quote
You're quite right wondering that! I can't explain you all my rational and my needs as I have recognize them, but let's say that while the DA* 560 I'm sure is a great lens, I still want a lens with less physical length and fast enough to be able to handle both a 1.4X and 2.0X TCs. So long story short that leaves me with 400/2.8, 500/4, 600/4 as my choices. The Sigma 500/4.5 is on the verge being f9 at 1000mm but the lack of a HSM and a focus limiter makes me wait a bit more before I decide my next step...
But this mean that if Pentax decide to make a nexw super tele prime, the problem may be that this new super tele doesn't fit your needs neithers: too big or too slow or whatever...

So even if Pentax release a new one, it may not sell to you or others. That's exactly the problem. Pentax can afford to have 33-4 lenses around 35mm for all kind of needs, same for many transtandard with different compromize. But if we need 3-4 super tele prime to cover the different use case that's the problem.

The problem is we have a super tele prime, and you don't want it! The problem is you can use it on an APSC body that mean TC + no vigneting for free, but that not good enough for you.

I perfectly understand why you don't want it, no issue, but it is clear why that a problem for the manufacturer too.
03-31-2017, 12:17 AM - 2 Likes   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
  1. Nobody relevant is "scared of SDM". A handful children on forums is nothing.
  2. No demand for a 50-200 if you can buy a 55-300 already. 50-200 were a temporary stop gap cheap thing.
  3. the DA 35/50 are so cheap that it is actually very clever to keep them screw drive the next ten years. They only appeal to the cheapo type buyers but also send the message that you have to pay normal money for normal lenses.
    I personally would even see business sense in stopping sales of those lenses if the entry level market is dead. Pentax has nothing to gain from cheapo lens buyers and non-buyers sticking to obsolete manual lenses. Ignore those groups and let other makers have their fun with them.
The basic strategy of camera manufacturer is to have cheap camera bundled with kit lens sometime 2 lenses. That where the volume is and you don't make much money with it because people will compare prices. Half of the market approximately will never buy anything else except maybe another camera kit when the old fail. The opportunity at that point is not to upsell theses people with better lenses, they don't get it but to explain how better the high end camera, this tend to work much better. How pixel shift is better, how KP has better high iso. At that point they don't really understand anything as new customers and they all think the camera is important and the lens isn't. So you can sell a KP or K70 to them instead of a K50.

Then a few percent will grow into photography and buy new bodies and lenses. They may finish up with 10K$ invested or more and tied to your echosystem. But the key point is that if you didn't lure them into your echosystem and they got to another echosystem they are quite unlikely to switch.

You can't make a lot on expensive lenses and cameras if you don't get the beginners if your echosystem to begin with. Because the few % will end up buying the 55-300 PLM or a 50mm f/1.8 or a 16-85. And then it become smarter to stay in your brand because you can still use your past investment...

That's why it is so important to have good enough camera and lenses in entry level for people to feel like the brand is nice, but crap enough that they are willing to upgrade. That's not easy, but basically that the job of marketing.

And no, Pentax kits are not with the 55-300PLM. Sure there the 18-135 lens that is true gem but that get bad rep for sharpness from people that don't understand its appeal, but there 2 many case where you get the 18-55 screw drive alone or with 50-200.

THe 55-300PLM is already part of the upgrade cycle. I guess simply because at $350€ and as not being a transtandard a K50 kit would already be $1000, and a KP it would be $1800! Even the 18-135 this is the same issue, often it is already part of the upgrade cycle because it is already $800-1200 for non flaship camera kit to get one. That's expensive.

And that's bad because for most people the 18-135 or a 17-70C are the best overall compromize with also 17-50 f/2.8 from tamron/sigma + any of the 70-300 / 55-300. But that's already too expensive.

03-31-2017, 01:21 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
  1. Nobody relevant is "scared of SDM". A handful children on forums is nothing.
  2. No demand for a 50-200 if you can buy a 55-300 already. 50-200 were a temporary stop gap cheap thing.
  3. the DA 35/50 are so cheap that it is actually very clever to keep them screw drive the next ten years. They only appeal to the cheapo type buyers but also send the message that you have to pay normal money for normal lenses.
    I personally would even see business sense in stopping sales of those lenses if the entry level market is dead. Pentax has nothing to gain from cheapo lens buyers and non-buyers sticking to obsolete manual lenses. Ignore those groups and let other makers have their fun with them.
I have both the DA 50-200 and DA 55-300 (screwdriven AF because I got it before the new PLM was released).
I do agree that the 55-300 is better and the wider focal range very convenient, but it is a big lens which I got for an African wildlife safari and I very seldom used since, because it is large and heavy and I am not a birding fan.
I dont use much my 12 years old DA50-200 since I got DA18-135 three years ago, but it is much lighter and smaller than DA55-300, which, to my kind of photography, is very valuable. I may use it as a two zoom kits to complement the focal range when I go shooting with my DA17-70. The 50-200 range, even at f4-5.6, allows nice bokeh for family portraits.

By the way, DA17-70 is SDM only, it doesnt have screwdrive alternative. It looks like it is not so prone to SDM failure, because its focus elements are small and with a short throw.

My experience is it is a very good f4 constant silent and fast AF zoom lens (which is 0.7 to 1 stop better at the long end than alternative zoom lenses like DA18-135 or DA16-85), with very nice contrast even fully open or at infinity focus, which makes it a nice general purpose alternative to shooting with primes (I have DA15, DA21, DA35 macro, DA40, FA50 f1.7 and DA70) for sessions when you prefer the convenience of a zoom but want better IQ than DA18-135.

I like the way it renders on landscapes and on sunsets.
What I dont like is its size, bulk and weight, and it is only 70 at the long end.

IMO, it is now replaced by DA16-85 f3.5-5.6 DC: almost same size and weight, and comparable optical design, which I might have bought if I didnt have DA17-70, as the wider range at both ends is nice.

I dont understand people bashing entry level kit lenses like DA18-55, or the plastic wonders DA35 f2.4 (I also have it, though I dont use it much since I have DA35 macro limited). Of course, they are not stellar, but they offer an outstanding image quality vs price performance, now that software corrections can cope with most aberrations, and modern sensors deliver usable IQ at ISO 3200/6400, and stabilization allow sharp results at very slow exposures.

Though I prefer fast and silent AF, like in DA18-135, I dont mind screwdriven AF on my limited lenses, it is reliable, fast and decisive enough on K3, even at full aperture, and not so noisy as it was on K30.

I think too many people in photographic gear forums have not understood that the golden age of digital photography, with started in the early 2000 years with growing sales, decreasing prices, and increasing image quality, is now over.
This golden period ended around 2015, as the smartphones have killed the entry level compact cameras, which was the cash flow machine of camera manufacturers.

All manufacturers suffer to what looks like a market collapse, but, IMO, is rather the return to a mature photographic market: no more performance jumps since high pixel density C-MOS sensors replaced CCD around 2010. Only incremental improvements in in-camera processing power and algorythms, which offer better AF and high ISO performance, but the performance of 5-7 years old models like K5 or K30 was already overkill for most users.

Computer design allowed much better optical performance in both zooms and large aperture lenses. But everybody can check that the optical performance of film era classical compact lens designs and coatings was already very good, and most of their aberrations can today be automatically software corrected, either in-camera for JPEGs and for the mirrorless RAW files, or using lens profiles in PP.

ILC cameras are becoming a niche market, and DSLR are slowly loosing their domination inside this market, because mirrorless makers, have benefited of the continuous improvements coming from the smarthone business of both EVF, back LCD viewers, and on sensor AF, and have had a better understanding of what most customers expect: small size and light weight, appealing affordable entry level cameras with excellent out of camera JPEGs, no brainer entry level cheap kit zooms, video implementation and WIFI connectivity with smartphones and tablets, with higher end glass and bodies available for geeks, at high price tags which allow larger margins.

IMO, once the fire sales to clean the shelves will be over, we must expect the industry will return to what the ILC market was 20 years ago: lower sales volumes and number, slower rate of renewals, with only incremental improvements.
03-31-2017, 02:04 AM - 2 Likes   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But this mean that if Pentax decide to make a nexw super tele prime, the problem may be that this new super tele doesn't fit your needs neithers: too big or too slow or whatever...

So even if Pentax release a new one, it may not sell to you or others. That's exactly the problem. Pentax can afford to have 33-4 lenses around 35mm for all kind of needs, same for many transtandard with different compromize. But if we need 3-4 super tele prime to cover the different use case that's the problem.

The problem is we have a super tele prime, and you don't want it! The problem is you can use it on an APSC body that mean TC + no vigneting for free, but that not good enough for you.

I perfectly understand why you don't want it, no issue, but it is clear why that a problem for the manufacturer too.
As you say you understand that with the DA 560 Pentax tried to close that huge gap on the super tele end of her system. That's waht the DA 560 is. A really good prime lens but with a few shortcomings that I see it like a quick fix to be able to show a full lens line for new users that consider investing into Pentax. I copy a text from the another forum talking about this lens and its demand from Pentaxians:

KL Matt commented (and I couldn't agree more)
Also it wouldn't surprise me if the revenues from this one extremely low-volume lens are practically irrelevant to Ricoh. This was never intended to be a cash cow. The pricing at launch may have been more of a branding/positioning decision (Pentax wishes to be seen not as a cheap or bargain brand, but rather as a premium/high-performance optical brand) than anything else.
It's important to offer a "full" line of lenses for the sake of appearances. So the 560's mere existence probably influences the system choice of individuals who will never be interested in buying it, even if the effect is subtle or small. It may simply be an investment in the brand/system.


So why I haven't bought the DA 560 and why I would buy, for example, the new Sigma 500/4 the same day that would hit the market in K mount:

- It's a DA lens that vignettes a lot until F8
- It's too long to carry around and needs special-seperate bag

- It's slower than other primes at its price tag (though this is not a deal breaker for me)
- It can only handle the 1.4X TC and that decreases its versatility

- Its minimal focus distance is too long at 5.6meters (bad for birding)

- Its DC motor is quite fast but not HSM fast (again not a deal breaker)

- It's not a * star len and you only buy once that kind of lenses. If it were a star lens CA and FR performance would be greater i believe.



So, although everything in photography is a compromise, since this is a huge investment I would like to be sure that my super tele covers most of my specifications. I think what I'm asking is not something irrationall and I don't have some peculiarities that would be difficult to cover from a super tele prime. I just consider all my options and wait a bit to see the Ricoh strategy before I decide. It's a pitty that I don't have such a lens for my K-1.



A final word is that I'm a DFA 150-450 and HD 1.4X TC owner-user from the early adopters, so not someone that just play with my keyboard just for provoking controversies in PF.
04-01-2017, 11:03 PM - 8 Likes   #217
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x.x / 35
1.4 / 50
1.4 / 85
Coming up next.
Not only under development on paper anymore.
Production run/number of pieces will be low,cause of high quality * line.
Best regards
04-01-2017, 11:26 PM   #218
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Coming together ?

04-01-2017, 11:33 PM - 1 Like   #219
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Can these focal lengths get any more standard? This is a sarcastic, rhetorical question on my part, and I mention that because I've been told that my humor is hard to read here.

I'm also noting that the widest prime they offer is still the FA 31. I do not understand this but I'm not smart enough to run a brand/company like Pentax so whatever.
04-02-2017, 12:06 AM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Coming together ?
Sadly not
04-02-2017, 01:03 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
x.x / 35
1.4 / 50
1.4 / 85
Coming up next.
Not only under development on paper anymore.
Production run/number of pieces will be low,cause of high quality * line.
Best regards
Great news ! Thanks !
04-02-2017, 03:01 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
x.x / 35
1.4 / 50
1.4 / 85
Coming up next.
Not only under development on paper anymore.
Production run/number of pieces will be low,cause of high quality * line.
Best regards
Theses lenses look more to be a show up of what is possible etc than made for everyday practical shooting for most of Pentax customers.

Well if it work it make sense, I guess having some review showing that Pentax has the best performing lenses of all the FF mounts for example would shake things a bit.

I would still like to see some small ltd lenses in the roadmap through... In particular around 15-25mm and around 120-150mm...

It would also make sense to provide 2-3 DFA plastic wonder, in particular around 85 and in the 20-28mm range. Apparently the existing one perform ok on FF but they could also be rebadged.
04-02-2017, 03:05 AM   #223
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1.4 35 because it is large aperture . Will they appear in that order? Or first the 50?
04-02-2017, 06:13 AM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
Sadly not
In parallel to the F1.4 Prime releases, any news on Pixel pitches in APSc flagship? Seems that the HD coatings help with crosstalk..

Also, what is the difference with the HD coatings (growing on the roadmap) and what we saw in DA* coatings? THX!!!
04-02-2017, 07:24 AM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
x.x / 35
1.4 / 50
1.4 / 85
Coming up next.
Not only under development on paper anymore.
Production run/number of pieces will be low,cause of high quality * line.
Best regards
What about the D-FA telephoto on the roadmap? Any word of that?
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