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03-11-2017, 02:56 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Billions form their world view based on what they see on their television screens. And have been doing so for decades.
And this worries me.

03-11-2017, 04:58 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Profitably making and selling an MILC is more a manufacturing process challenge than an actual electronic engineering challenge. If they should so choose, it is quite reasonable to assume Pentax could acquire the components and electrical engineering skills to release a competent MILC. What is less clear is whether they can design (or acquire, probably from Ricoh) the manufacturing process engineering, tools and techniques to release a successful MILC profitably - and do so while simultaneously expanding everything in 3 dSLR formats.

The above argues in favor of FF Medium Format MILC for Pentax, where they would have pricing control, as a starting point.
I think the challenge is more towards committing to another MILC specific mount than engineering processes unless they are thinking k-01s successor. The fact that LV is already offered and that they built the k-01 previously they already have the knowhow.

On additional thoughts it is cheaper to make a camera without an OVF and Mirror Box. And offer a EVF as an accesory and let people use the LV.
03-11-2017, 05:05 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
I think the challenge is more towards committing to another MILC specific mount than engineering processes unless they are thinking k-01s successor. The fact that LV is already offered and that they built the k-01 previously they already have the knowhow.

On additional thoughts it is cheaper to make a camera without an OVF and Mirror Box. And offer a EVF as an accesory and let people use the LV.
K-01 is just a K-30 using full-time LiveView. They know how to make K-30's.
03-11-2017, 05:31 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
"Properly" is a subjective word. Anyway, you don't have to chimp to use your camera film users know that of old.
There's more uses to the LCD than mere "chimping" friend.

03-11-2017, 07:33 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
There's more uses to the LCD than mere "chimping" friend.
Yes, I know. I was trying to be brief.
03-12-2017, 03:28 PM - 1 Like   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
You misunderstand the idea of photography. It is about experience, which purely mirrorless system can never achieve. Mirrorless is photography's dead end.

As a result of preoccupation with latest and pointless fad which has no future, many beginner photographers are led into a conceptual trap.
I think you misunderstand the idea of mirrorless cameras. They're just another type of photographic tool, with some advantages and disadvantages compared to DSLRs, depending on the use cases. I have no idea what experience you're referring to, beyond visualising and capturing an image creatively. That, surely, is the whole point of photography, and it can be done with any type of camera - including mirrorless.
03-12-2017, 05:32 PM - 1 Like   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Mirrorless is photography's dead end.
My 4x5 camera doesn't have a mirror.

It makes awesome photos.

Even though it is a newer camera, the platform is over 100 years old. Even if a time comes when I can no longer buy film for it, there is always wet plate and other 'do it yourself' ways to make images.

Dead end?

I think not.

As has been mentioned here by others, photography is all about the image. Be it a snapshot at a birthday party, or a still life that is presented as fine art. The equipment, camera, lens, lighting, tripod, etc. is merely the tools used to get the job done.


What concerns me is how the masses have become so focused on the smart phone. They no longer use a personal computer, so high resolution photos made with DSLR cameras are gross overkill. The crappy cell phone photos have become 'good enough', and millions of people have become overnight Ansel Adams wannabes. The market for DSLR cameras will shrink, and eventually they will be discontinued.
03-12-2017, 08:00 PM   #83
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I don't care for mirrorless myself as I don't like the electronic viewfinders. Having said that - If someone made an electronic viewfinder that behaved exactly like or better than a prism and a mirror, then it would make sense to buy one! Less moving parts, faster shutter speeds, etc. Who knows where technology will take us? The main thing is to continue to produce high quality thought provoking images.

03-12-2017, 08:55 PM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
What concerns me is how the masses have become so focused on the smart phone. They no longer use a personal computer, so high resolution photos made with DSLR cameras are gross overkill. The crappy cell phone photos have become 'good enough', and millions of people have become overnight Ansel Adams wannabes. The market for DSLR cameras will shrink, and eventually they will be discontinued.
This is in fact a very good point. That is a concern that the market will wrestle with big time.

Mirrorless cameras are not something I am into. However to say they are merely a fade is likely a serious underestimate of there potential. I don't think DSLR's are going anywhere but it is foolish to think that MILC won't be contenders in a shrinking photography equipment market. I know tech for EVF is really good but an excellent OVF is still in my view the best.

What we need is to get young people interested in photography, if that starts with an iPhone, Samsung Galaxy or iPad that is GREAT. What an awesome place to start and graduate to an enthusiast level compact, 4/3's MILC then a DSLR etc. If mirrorless is the way to get them into the big boy DSLR's and $1,000 camera bodies and $500, $1,000 and $1,500 lenses so be it. Photography with traditional camera equipment needs to remain relevant and if MILC do that then great.

I think Ricoh/Pentax due to their small size in the market with a GREAT time tested K-mount, excellent crop APS-C offering, affordable K-1 must be doing something right. I would be very excited for a mirrorless K-mount product with full lens compatibility like a modern K-01. I might not buy it but would welcome it if brought to market and generates interest in the line. I do think KP has done this to some extent as well. I think Ricoh is positioned just about as well as anyone else is to weather the current storm, in the new 'normal.'
03-12-2017, 11:05 PM - 1 Like   #85
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This discussion has veered way off-topic, but in a broad sense, it's relevant to the argument central to this thread. The way photography became acceptable as an art form, and not just a means of recording the state of the world at various points in time, was that the early proponents printed in large form and displayed their work.

While the phone camera has been used for this purpose, it will always have its limitations. If we believe that the camera as a single entity needs to survive, in order that photography as a credible art form should also survive, we need to do the same, as well as continue to support the camera makers, and maybe bicker less about the details.
03-12-2017, 11:17 PM   #86
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IMO the problem is not the tools.
Image nowadays are a banality everywhere including the net and social medias. There's mostly no reading of the image, of its significance or its composition (etc.) anymore.
The image in itself, just the content, taken first degree with as little thinking/questioning as possible.

That makes smartphone the tool of choice to produce 'en masse' such pointless images. But that's no photography in my book.

Not that photography is impossible with smartphones, people (and manufacturers) just don't bother.
03-13-2017, 02:58 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
IMO the problem is not the tools.
Image nowadays are a banality everywhere including the net and social medias. There's mostly no reading of the image, of its significance or its composition (etc.) anymore.
The image in itself, just the content, taken first degree with as little thinking/questioning as possible.
That makes smartphone the tool of choice to produce 'en masse' such pointless images. But that's no photography in my book.
Not that photography is impossible with smartphones, people (and manufacturers) just don't bother.
The other day, splendid sunset; I walked with my wife reflecting on life of my mother who died recently; suddenly I pointed to cloud tops, illuminated like a fiery gem through a complex web of sun rays. She took her iPhone and made several snaps, and I took a photograph with my Leica. The images were incomparable. Even she commented afterwards that the iPhone images are total rubbish. In addition to distortions in the iPhone pictures, 70% of nuances at least have all gone.
That is not photography — I would say, that in terms of quality, smartphone photography today is the new lomography.
I think that is fair assessment.
03-13-2017, 03:46 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The other day, splendid sunset; I walked with my wife reflecting on life of my mother who died recently; suddenly I pointed to cloud tops, illuminated like a fiery gem through a complex web of sun rays. She took her iPhone and made several snaps, and I took a photograph with my Leica. The images were incomparable. Even she commented afterwards that the iPhone images are total rubbish. In addition to distortions in the iPhone pictures, 70% of nuances at least have all gone.
That is not photography — I would say, that in terms of quality, smartphone photography today is the new lomography.
I think that is fair assessment.
Very sorry to hear about your Mum

I think you're onto something by likening smartphone photography to so-called "Lomography". But, whilst it may involve a lot less technical skill and produce results that are of a lower quality than high-end cameras, it's still photography. At the very least, there is some compositional input required - however minimal - and the end result is a captured image.
03-13-2017, 05:55 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
That is not photography I would say, that in terms of quality, smartphone photography today is the new lomography.
I think that is fair assessment.
I disagree. Lomography is modern day pictorialism. A cell phone camera is not Lomography at all though it can be used to make pictorialism style pictures. Personally I like pictorialism but I understand those who don't.

Sorry to hear about your mother.

Mirrorless cameras are not going away. Neither are DSLRs but they will be more niche tools just like a view camera had become today. Though I must point out the irony of your use of a Leica which is a mirrorless camera.
03-13-2017, 04:23 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr Bassie Quote
I disagree. Lomography is modern day pictorialism. A cell phone camera is not Lomography at all though it can be used to make pictorialism style pictures. Personally I like pictorialism but I understand those who don't..
If the real image from the smartphone is revealed, it would shock the people. But the very nature of image processing, oversampling, adjusting and stretching, approximating, etc. in a smartphone, is similar to using expired film in a camera with bad lens. The images only under certain conditions may somewhat faithfully represent the moment, and I say — to an extent — because smartphone takes all control from the photographer. In a similar manner expired film takes away control of basic parameters and rewards us with pure chance; aperture, shutter speed, etc, inside smartphone all is determined by chance, and 'brain' inside camera.
So smartphone imaging is a combination of an idiot camera snap-shooting and lomography. Idiot camera being a simple box, or, just-press-the-shutter-release box.
In short, if one cannot fully control the shutter speed, aperture and iso, at all times, technically it is not photography.
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