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04-24-2017, 12:04 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
I'm sure buffers, chips, sd card write speed are complicated. But when a relatively cheap smartphone can do it, why not an actual camera? I hope the next generation of Pentax bodies addresses this. We still have the same video capabilities since.. what, K-30? K-01?
Smartphone sale volume are not the same order of magnitude...It is at least a few hundred times. Think of it apple alone can put about a thousand people working on the next camera module for their iphone... Even the average smartphone is going to sell dozen times more at least.

As such R&D fixed cost are much easier to fix.

04-24-2017, 03:29 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
As such R&D fixed cost are much easier to fix.
But I don't expect Pentax to develop their own chip. Already they buy sensor, shutter, and probably many other components from various companies. If those smartphones are made in the thousands, hundreds of thousands, why not use their CPU and memory modules?
well, I guess they have their reasons. But it seems that these electronics are becoming cheaper and cheaper while we are still using many components from.. 2012?
04-24-2017, 08:26 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Smartphone sale volume are not the same order of magnitude...It is at least a few hundred times. Think of it apple alone can put about a thousand people working on the next camera module for their iphone... Even the average smartphone is going to sell dozen times more at least.

As such R&D fixed cost are much easier to fix.

If I'm not mistaken, Apple gets their iPhone camera sensors from Sony too.
04-24-2017, 11:36 PM   #169
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AFAIR current socionext chips are based on ARM too.
IMO that is not the problem.

04-25-2017, 08:23 AM - 1 Like   #170
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While the Fujitsu/SocioNext Milbeaut does have two ARM-based cores, Fujitsu also said in a whitepaper that they have done hardware optimization for the image processing pipeline. It may be that current mobile CPUs have enough horsepower that this is not an issue; it may also be that mobile processors have so much other stuff not needed in an image processor that they would not be much cheaper despite the economy of scale. Samsung's DRIMe image processor was derived from their Exynos mobile processor - they must have had a reason not to just slap the Exynos in their cameras as well.

The biggest problem I see is that there is an awful lot of proprietary image processing code in the Milbeaut that Pentax would have to develop from scratch if whatever processor they switched to did not have it. There's a huge difference between writing an app that calls existing functions and writing the underlying functions themselves. Looking at the Milbeaut spec pages, there's lens distortion correction, noise reduction, face detection, image stabilization (video and still), HDR (video and still), video compression/codec... Pentax didn't write any of this.
04-25-2017, 08:50 AM - 1 Like   #171
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To be clear, I am OVER THE MOON HAPPY that the Pentax K-1 is doing well. I own and shoot Pentax, and the K-1 will almost certainly be in my future. Yay Pentax.

But I was happy to offer an alternative perspective to the second half of the OP:
Not wasting effort on gimmicks which only a irrelevant few whine about:
QuoteQuote:
“Video is not our number one priority. In most cases our customers are not primarily shooting video” with their cameras, Eguchi says.
Regarding the Pentax quote: I agree with Pentax. Even I am not primarily shooting video with Pentax or any other camera. My comments are aligned with Pentax's strategy. Pentax does not need to be world-beating in video. They don't have to spend a lot of money chasing video. That would be a fools errand.

But I tire of the argument that including decent video has some big cost attached to it. Pentax (and everybody else) is using commodity parts. Pentax are already writing basic software to control the video included in those commodity parts. My basic ask of Pentax is to make the best choices they can make about the features they offer. (i.e. allowing manual exposure control, which was an early video bugaboo.)

I'd love to know what the cost of enabling video shooting on Pentax cameras has cost, amortized over each camera. Is it $5 per camera? As soon as photography went digital, every camera became a video camera by definition. No one is asking for radical overhauls that would double the production cost of Pentax cameras. Just smart choices in using their preferred hardware, therefore not arbitrarily shutting out people who sometimes need to shoot some video.

And mentioning the video-less Leica is straw man argument. Leica is choosing to offer LESS functionality from commodity parts. That attitude leads to HIGHER costs as you end up with a product that is both more customized and is amortized over a smaller niche audience. It's as silly an argument as saying "I bought a Leica Monochrome camera because I'm tired of paying for all that stupid expensive color photography technology."
04-25-2017, 09:28 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
To be clear, I am OVER THE MOON HAPPY that the Pentax K-1 is doing well. I own and shoot Pentax, and the K-1 will almost certainly be in my future. Yay Pentax.

But I was happy to offer an alternative perspective to the second half of the OP:
Not wasting effort on gimmicks which only a irrelevant few whine about:
QuoteQuote:
“Video is not our number one priority. In most cases our customers are not primarily shooting video” with their cameras, Eguchi says.
Regarding the Pentax quote: I agree with Pentax. Even I am not primarily shooting video with Pentax or any other camera. My comments are aligned with Pentax's strategy. Pentax does not need to be world-beating in video. They don't have to spend a lot of money chasing video. That would be a fools errand.

But I tire of the argument that including decent video has some big cost attached to it. Pentax (and everybody else) is using commodity parts. Pentax are already writing basic software to control the video included in those commodity parts. My basic ask of Pentax is to make the best choices they can make about the features they offer. (i.e. allowing manual exposure control, which was an early video bugaboo.)

I'd love to know what the cost of enabling video shooting on Pentax cameras has cost, amortized over each camera. Is it $5 per camera? As soon as photography went digital, every camera became a video camera by definition. No one is asking for radical overhauls that would double the production cost of Pentax cameras. Just smart choices in using their preferred hardware, therefore not arbitrarily shutting out people who sometimes need to shoot some video.

And mentioning the video-less Leica is straw man argument. Leica is choosing to offer LESS functionality from commodity parts. That attitude leads to HIGHER costs as you end up with a product that is both more customized and is amortized over a smaller niche audience. It's as silly an argument as saying "I bought a Leica Monochrome camera because I'm tired of paying for all that stupid expensive color photography technology."
How do you know Pentax hasn't done exactly what you ask? Perhaps they've enabled all the easy features for video available on the Socionext chips and getting anything better is a bigger project.

For example, exposure control in video is very different from exposure control in stills. For still pictures, the controls are set and then activated very quickly at the start of the exposure and then reset quickly at the end. The aperture stops down fast and pops open fast. But for video, the aperture needs to be opened and closed more slowly to avoid abrupt changes in scene brightness. Can the current Pentax aperture motor systems even physically do this? (And maybe this is part of the long-term roadmap for KAF4) The point is that writing an entirely new control system for the aperture subsystem for smooth aperture changes is a much bigger project than simply enabling something in the commodity chips and software Pentax gets from Socionext.
04-25-2017, 09:37 AM - 1 Like   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The aperture stops down fast and pops open fast. But for video, the aperture needs to be opened and closed more slowly to avoid abrupt changes in scene brightness. Can the current Pentax aperture motor systems even physically do this? (And maybe this is part of the long-term roadmap for KAF4)
You'd think so?
"Quiet AF operation and electromagnetic diaphragm control, perfect for movie recording
This is the first K-mount lens to feature an electromagnetic diaphragm control system. When mounted on the new PENTAX K-70 digital SLR camera body, it assures smooth, high-precision aperture control during movie recording. Thanks to this state-of-the-art system, it shifts the aperture setting automatically and smoothly, even when the brightness level of the subject changes drastically in movie shooting. Coupled with the PLM mechanism, it also assures smooth AF tracking operation and exposure control, while minimizing the intrusion of focus- and aperture-shift noises during movie-recording operation. As the result, it produces more natural, true-to-life movies in locations such as a theater stage or a sunlight-streaked forest where the brightness level fluctuates considerably, and for such active subjects as athletes and animals."

HD PENTAX-DA 55-300mmF4.5-6.3ED PLM WR RE / Telephoto Lenses / K-mount Lenses / Lenses / Products | RICOH IMAGING

Yeah, lenses are part of the cost.

04-25-2017, 12:39 PM   #174
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Ricoh has 4K (theta/wg-m2)...must be coming to pentax?
04-25-2017, 01:19 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You'd think so?
"Quiet AF operation and electromagnetic diaphragm control, perfect for movie recording
This is the first K-mount lens to feature an electromagnetic diaphragm control system. When mounted on the new PENTAX K-70 digital SLR camera body, it assures smooth, high-precision aperture control during movie recording. Thanks to this state-of-the-art system, it shifts the aperture setting automatically and smoothly, even when the brightness level of the subject changes drastically in movie shooting. Coupled with the PLM mechanism, it also assures smooth AF tracking operation and exposure control, while minimizing the intrusion of focus- and aperture-shift noises during movie-recording operation. As the result, it produces more natural, true-to-life movies in locations such as a theater stage or a sunlight-streaked forest where the brightness level fluctuates considerably, and for such active subjects as athletes and animals."

HD PENTAX-DA 55-300mmF4.5-6.3ED PLM WR RE / Telephoto Lenses / K-mount Lenses / Lenses / Products | RICOH IMAGING

Yeah, lenses are part of the cost.
LOL! Well that shows you two things: 1) I know little about the video-related features of Pentax cameras because I don't use video; 2) apparently Pentax cameras may have more video-related functionality than the doomsters and haters believe.
04-25-2017, 01:38 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
video-related functionality
LaurenOE shoots video, and here efforts with Pentax are outstanding....its the person using the camera that matters the most.However, 4K is available by the other camera makers.Ricoh has to catch up.1080p is obsolete.
04-25-2017, 02:05 PM - 3 Likes   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
LaurenOE shoots video, and here efforts with Pentax are outstanding....its the person using the camera that matters the most.However, 4K is available by the other camera makers.Ricoh has to catch up.1080p is obsolete.
Most of what I see on my tv screen is 1080p. The regional broadcasting station I work, uses it. At a major national news event I attended, I did not see one 4K capable camera. So to say it is obsolete is a bit harsh in my opinion...
04-25-2017, 02:30 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
How do you know Pentax hasn't done exactly what you ask? Perhaps they've enabled all the easy features for video available on the Socionext chips and getting anything better is a bigger project.
They could enable sensor-shift SR in video (they've done it before) and focus peaking to increase video functionality and usability. I doubt think it would take more than a few lines of code, should be cheap to implement, and the Socionext chip shouldn't be a limiting factor.
04-25-2017, 02:47 PM - 1 Like   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fries Quote
Most of what I see on my tv screen is 1080p. The regional broadcasting station I work, uses it. At a major national news event I attended, I did not see one 4K capable camera. So to say it is obsolete is a bit harsh in my opinion...
Broadcast Network News is ready for 4K but it isn't yet the standard.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-25-2017 at 07:50 PM.
04-25-2017, 02:56 PM - 1 Like   #180
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I find modern TVs kind of scary, with their super high resolution and contrasts. Every movie or broadcast looks like you are standing in a poorly lit studio. You can see the actor's pores and makeup. I don't think we need that kind of realism for most TV contest lol But hey, welcome to the future! They are already working on beating 4k
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