Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-06-2017, 03:10 PM - 3 Likes   #331
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
"Heat" is often generated only because some people believes their choice must be the only one. They see something they like (perhaps it works better for them, perhaps they're just not quite aware of the alternatives) and that becomes "correct".
There would be much less "heat" if people would realize that almost always in our choices, there isn't a single correct answer.

05-06-2017, 03:21 PM - 1 Like   #332
Veteran Member
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,361
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What's their legacy mount?

The issue is legacy brands are capital-bound. Ricoh wrote down ¥8B to account for the shutdown of P&E after the collapse of the compact camera. They can't/won't throw away the existing dSLR tools, patents and corporate engineering catalog and Ricoh won't give them $1B to start fresh. They all hope to smoothly depreciate legacy P&E while they invest in new technology. Sometimes change happens faster than they want.

If they could do it don't you think they would have by now? They tried with K-01 - first MILC ever to use a legacy mount - and Q - smallest MILC at the time - but the market demands thin, shiny ergonomic Frankencameras with a tiny television inside. Sony, Panny and Canon have that skill, too. Where's Ricoh going to buy it?
What's interesting is that once Sony shifted their attention away from the legacy system that they spent millions buying and towards a new mount and full frame sensor, their fortunes changed. There's no way they could have knocked off Nikon with an A-mount camera. Likewise, their E-mount languished until they stuck a FF sensor in it. It was that combination that turned their fortunes around.

Yes, Pentax has tried with the K-01 and Q but they failed. I hope they have the courage and resources to try again. I am still waiting for a full-frame K-02...

Last edited by johnmflores; 05-06-2017 at 04:33 PM.
05-06-2017, 03:33 PM   #333
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,129
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I am still waiting for a full-frame K-02...
Don't hold your breath!


It would be nice though, theres even a few FF lenses to go with it.
05-06-2017, 04:15 PM   #334
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Working From Home
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,276
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
What's interesting is that once Sony shifted their attention away from the legacy system that they spent millions buying and towards a new mount and full frame sensor, their fortunes changed. There's no way they could have knocked off Nikon with an A-mount camera. Likewise, their E-mount languished until they stuck a FF sensor in it. It was that combination that turned their fortunes around.

Yes, Pentax as tried with the K-01 and Q but they failed. I hope they have the courage and resources to try again. I am still waiting for a full-frame K-02...
My point is Ricoh isn't Sony and the Board won't allocate the money to MILC the way Sony did - they don't have a proprietary technology (sensors) to look to as the revenue source that offsets camera (investment) losses. They don't have a proprietary skill they can draw on at no real current cost (display imaging for Panasonic and Canon AND Sony) because Hoya stripped whatever they had. They don't have their own imaging engine technology; they can barely develop an AF sensor on their own - and even then they have to spread it across viewfinders it isn't suited to cover; they're struggling to develop one FF lens at a time and heaven knows what they're doing with 645; they had to drop Q altogether; their big deal - Theta - was just 'nationalized' by Ricoh corporate to make in the former compact camera Plant (the write down was tactical, not strategic) so Pentax can't even use the cash flow from Theta (while it lasts).

I just don't believe Pentax will can develop a MILC any time in the foreseeable future.

05-06-2017, 04:38 PM   #335
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,129
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I just don't believe Pentax will can develop a MILC any time in the foreseeable future.
It will come as a surprise IF they do....but on the positive side, there has been the odd surprise.


Its difficult to predict the future for camera co, tech is rapidly advancing.
05-06-2017, 06:00 PM   #336
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,122
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Yes, Pentax has tried with the K-01 and Q but they failed. I hope they have the courage and resources to try again. I am still waiting for a full-frame K-02...
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
they're struggling to develop one FF lens at a time and heaven knows what they're doing with 645; they had to drop Q altogether; their big deal - Theta - was just 'nationalized' by Ricoh corporate to make in the former compact camera Plant (the write down was tactical, not strategic) so Pentax can't even use the cash flow from Theta (while it lasts).

I just don't believe Pentax will can develop a MILC any time in the foreseeable future.
They have to develop FF lenses to keep the K-1 a credible product. If they make a K-02 using the same lenses, they leverage that investment in lenses.
05-06-2017, 07:34 PM   #337
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Working From Home
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,276
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
They have to develop FF lenses to keep the K-1 a credible product. If they make a K-02 using the same lenses, they leverage that investment in lenses.
.
Doesn't that whole register distance thing blow up the small, thin, pocketable, sexy, skinny, hip,upscale, expensive (but shoddy) Sony experience deal?

05-06-2017, 07:52 PM - 1 Like   #338
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,122
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
.
Doesn't that whole register distance thing blow up the small, thin, pocketable, sexy, skinny, hip,upscale, expensive (but shoddy) Sony experience deal?
No, I believe the primary advantage of MILC is EVF, showing me what the camera will capture regardless of actual lighting conditions. I would expect the camera to be made to Pentax's traditional photo standards, not to Sony's consumer-gear standards.

In addition, it could be a very good companion to older lenses, because MILC would give the option of shooting pre-KA-mount lenses stepped-down the whole time, giving accurate metering without resorting to the green button and accurate focusing without resorting to an added split screen.
05-06-2017, 11:13 PM   #339
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,173
QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
And some have succeeded.
How much of their success do they share with you?
If you are a customer, you should be concerned about very successful supplier.
If your supplier is very successful, that simply means you did not get the discount you should have had.
05-07-2017, 12:28 AM   #340
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,129
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
How much of their success do they share with you?If you are a customer, you should be concerned about very successful supplier.If your supplier is very successful, that simply means you did not get the discount you should have had.
Is That your Biz?
05-07-2017, 01:18 AM   #341
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 175
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What's their legacy mount?

The issue is legacy brands are capital-bound. Ricoh wrote down ¥8B to account for the shutdown of P&E after the collapse of the compact camera. They can't/won't throw away the existing dSLR tools, patents and corporate engineering catalog and Ricoh won't give them $1B to start fresh. They all hope to smoothly depreciate legacy P&E while they invest in new technology. Sometimes change happens faster than they want.

If they could do it don't you think they would have by now? They tried with K-01 - first MILC ever to use a legacy mount - and Q - smallest MILC at the time - but the market demands thin, shiny ergonomic Frankencameras with a tiny television inside. Sony, Panny and Canon have that skill, too. Where's Ricoh going to buy it?

I think the entry-level dSLR is going the way of the compact, which might actually help Pentax. Canon and Nikon might have serious capital issues. Pentax can keep making small runs of eccentric, high-value cameras for a long time. Then they'll make small runs of eccentric MILC's in their spare time.
What is P&E?

---------- Post added 05-07-17 at 10:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My point is Ricoh isn't Sony and the Board won't allocate the money to MILC the way Sony did - they don't have a proprietary technology (sensors) to look to as the revenue source that offsets camera (investment) losses. They don't have a proprietary skill they can draw on at no real current cost (display imaging for Panasonic and Canon AND Sony) because Hoya stripped whatever they had. They don't have their own imaging engine technology; they can barely develop an AF sensor on their own - and even then they have to spread it across viewfinders it isn't suited to cover; they're struggling to develop one FF lens at a time and heaven knows what they're doing with 645; they had to drop Q altogether; their big deal - Theta - was just 'nationalized' by Ricoh corporate to make in the former compact camera Plant (the write down was tactical, not strategic) so Pentax can't even use the cash flow from Theta (while it lasts).

I just don't believe Pentax will can develop a MILC any time in the foreseeable future.
They cannot develop a MILC with a new mount but they might develop a FF K-mount MILC as an alternative/second body to the K1, to test how the market would react. Most of the R&D money to develop this new camera would be about on-sensor AF performance, which they need to do in all scenarios , whether to improve liveview in DSLR, or to incorporate in a future new mount mirrorless.
It would be a niche product but it might stand out, as the only other FF MILC offering is the Sony A7/A9.
It would also strengthen the K1 users base, whereas a new Pentax mount could hurt the K1 and DFA lenses sales.
It would work without adapter with all legacy K mount lenses and, AFAIK, with the existing Canikon to K mount adapters for legacy Canikon glass.

Last edited by Tatouzou; 05-07-2017 at 01:50 AM.
05-07-2017, 01:56 AM   #342
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
They cannot develop a MILC with a new mount but they might develop a FF K-mount MILC as an alternative/second body to the K1, to test how the market would react. Most of the R&D money to develop this new camera would be about on-sensor AF performance, which they need to do in all scenarios , whether to improve liveview in DSLR, or to incorporate in a future new mount mirrorless.
K-mount MILC? They did that, we know how it went.
On-sensor AF can be developed on DSLRs.
05-07-2017, 02:14 AM   #343
Veteran Member
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,375
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My point is Ricoh isn't Sony and the Board won't allocate the money to MILC the way Sony did - they don't have a proprietary technology (sensors) to look to as the revenue source that offsets camera (investment) losses. They don't have a proprietary skill they can draw on at no real current cost (display imaging for Panasonic and Canon AND Sony) because Hoya stripped whatever they had. They don't have their own imaging engine technology; they can barely develop an AF sensor on their own - and even then they have to spread it across viewfinders it isn't suited to cover; they're struggling to develop one FF lens at a time and heaven knows what they're doing with 645; they had to drop Q altogether; their big deal - Theta - was just 'nationalized' by Ricoh corporate to make in the former compact camera Plant (the write down was tactical, not strategic) so Pentax can't even use the cash flow from Theta (while it lasts).

I just don't believe Pentax will can develop a MILC any time in the foreseeable future.
You paint a grim picture, sir. I mean, isn't it time Ricoh decided to get cooking or get out of the kitchen. What are Ricoh doing in photography to begin with if they are "struggling to develop one FF lens at a time"? To get back to the subject of the thread, perhaps a Quixotic gesture by this stage of it, how welcoming is that to folks who are contemplating a move across from Canon or Nikon? People buy on good news, plenty of it. Perhaps Ricoh need a good news ambassador or three. I do wish the head of their imaging division would come out and give an interview. He was very good on the whole subject when the 645z came out; that is, he made the 645z sound like an amazing creator of images you had to have if you could. We need more of this.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-07-2017 at 02:57 AM.
05-07-2017, 05:22 AM   #344
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,113
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
What's interesting is that once Sony shifted their attention away from the legacy system that they spent millions buying and towards a new mount and full frame sensor, their fortunes changed. There's no way they could have knocked off Nikon with an A-mount camera. Likewise, their E-mount languished until they stuck a FF sensor in it. It was that combination that turned their fortunes around.

Yes, Pentax has tried with the K-01 and Q but they failed. I hope they have the courage and resources to try again. I am still waiting for a full-frame K-02...
If Sony could not successfully compete with Nikon on DSLRs how can we expect Pentax to successfully compete with Sony on MILC?

A pure MILC Pentax looks like a no-win proposition for the company:

1) K-mount MILC: the disadvantageous bulk of a DSLR without the advantageous OVF of a DSLR.

2) Compact Pentax MILC: extremely high investment in new bodies and lenses (for both Pentax and Pentax users). If current Pentax users must "switch mounts" or use an adaptor for their old lenses, won't many of them realize there's no advantage to staying with Pentax?


But a hybrid EVF-in-OVF would be amazing! (And far less costly for Pentax to develop and let Pentax continue with K-mount.)
05-07-2017, 05:35 AM - 2 Likes   #345
bxf
Veteran Member
bxf's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lisbon area
Posts: 1,660
I'm writing this while I still have 3-4 pages to read in this thread, but I can't help but be amazed at how HD resolution, which was great not so long ago, is suddenly completely inadequate for some people. I can understand some pros having to demonstrate that their work includes the latest tech, but for most people to say that 1080 is lacking in viewing quality is unrealistic.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, company, customers, data, guys, hd, k-1, k-1 another nikon/canon, level, lot, medium, movies, nikon/canon shooter, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, pentaxian buying k-1, pm, post, ricoh, sample, screen, shooter jumped ship, size, statement, thread, video, view
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Greetings - First Time Pentax User - Jumped Shipped from Canon bsjsfo Welcomes and Introductions 5 07-07-2014 12:40 PM
Jumped Ship - K5 urundai Pentax K-5 & K-5 II 39 04-22-2013 04:09 PM
Finally jumped ship Hey Elwood Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands 21 06-11-2012 09:31 PM
As Pentaxian, if you were to jump ship, Nikon, Canon, Sony, or? LFLee Pentax DSLR Discussion 215 06-11-2012 08:11 AM
K-r jumped ship to Sony A55 due to FF issues SteveUK Pentax K-r 15 06-25-2011 10:58 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:14 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top