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05-14-2017, 08:22 PM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's from integrated circuit engineering: the capacitance of the traces running from the edge of the chip to the pixels grows as the chip grows in size. It's a matter of the RC time constant of the circuit. If the number of pixels is constant, the length of the traces grows (worse resistance) but the width of the traces grows too (less resistance) so the R term can stay the same. But if the traces are twice as long and twice as wide in FF vs. M43, the capacitance is 4X higher, the time constant is 2X higher and it takes twice as long for each analog pixel signal level to drain to the analog-to-digital convertor. (The effect also poses challenges for the clock circuits and the amount of power required to send high speed clock signals across the full width of the chip along with the, the interference effects from those higher powered signals.)
Cool! Follow up question...the Sony A9 can shoot 20fps. Is that the stacked sensor at work? And does that suggest that the same technology applied to the Oympus OM-D EM1 II or any other M43 camera could result in 40fps (assuming same number of pixels)?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

05-14-2017, 08:48 PM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Cool! Follow up question...the Sony A9 can shoot 20fps. Is that the stacked sensor at work? And does that suggest that the same technology applied to the Oympus OM-D EM1 II or any other M43 camera could result in 40fps (assuming same number of pixels)?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
20 fps is without focus check between each shot. Even Nikon 1 had that. With focus check, A9 does same job as D5.
No need to thank me for sharing that info it is now common knowledge Sony's A9 PR was loaded with half-truths.
05-14-2017, 09:23 PM   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Sony's A9 PR was loaded with half-truths
Please explain( my middle name is Pauline)!
05-14-2017, 09:41 PM - 2 Likes   #469
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Sony's A9 PR was loaded with half-truths.
"Journalism is printing what someone else doesn't want printed. Everything else is public relations."
- Often attributed to George Orwell but not conclusively so


05-14-2017, 11:56 PM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Doesn't the D810 hit 6 fps in 1.2x mode? I think 7 fps with the oem grip..

That would be nice on the K-1 if possible.. plus 1.2x crop mode would probably benefit a lot of DA lenses... almost a pseudo APS-H mode.
6 FPS in 1.2x crop mode, and 7fps in DX mode with the grip, yes. The K-1 can do 6.5 fps in "DX" mode without a grip - and of course, it's not built to benefit in such a way.
Indeed, the cameras are on the same speed class; there's no reason to assume the K-1 is intentionally limited.

---------- Post added 15-05-17 at 09:59 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
20 fps is without focus check between each shot. Even Nikon 1 had that. With focus check, A9 does same job as D5.
No need to thank me for sharing that info it is now common knowledge Sony's A9 PR was loaded with half-truths.
I noticed when reading the official announcement on DPReview the sheer amount of footnotes - 17. Once again, Sony outdid every manufacturer out there.
05-15-2017, 07:10 AM - 3 Likes   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Cool! Follow up question...the Sony A9 can shoot 20fps. Is that the stacked sensor at work? And does that suggest that the same technology applied to the Oympus OM-D EM1 II or any other M43 camera could result in 40fps (assuming same number of pixels)?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
The general trend in sensor design has been to increase the number of read-outs where the analog pixel signal goes into an analog-to-digital convertor (ADC) which was on a different chip on the main board. The first CCD sensors had only one read-out: the CCD shift registers moved all the pixel contents to one edge where a second linear CCD register moved the pixel contents to one corner for read-out by a second CCD line. In time, the design evolved to split the frame in halves, quadrants, sub-rectangles to read more pixels in parallel. Increasing the number of ADCs lets one either add more pixels, increase the frame rate, or slow the reading of each pixel (which gives more time for the analog signal to be carefully measured). But the number of ADCs is limited by how many wires can be run from the sensor to the main board.

Sony has moved the ADC on to the sensor chip and seems to have put one ADC for each column or two which enables each pixel to be more slowly and carefully measured. Thus, the A9 chip has something like 3000 or 6000 ADCs. But putting so many ADCs on the sensor creates a second problem of getting all that digital data off the sensor. A stacked design attaches a buffer RAM chip directly to the sensor chip which enables faster handling of the raw sensor data. (Note: there's some added design issues with minimizing rolling-shutter effects that also push the design toward the stacked chip design for the fastest-possible read-out.)

All of this development is actually being pushed by the smartphone market. There's huge pressure on Apple and Samsung to deliver better cameras with high IQ, 4K video, super-slow-motion, etc. Apple buys on the order of $4 billion in camera modules a year which provides a significant financial incentive for Sony to push the envelope. For example, Sony now has a 3-chip stack for smart phones that include the sensor, RAM, and GPU/CPU for doing extremely sophisticated image processing of high frame rate data.(Image Sensors World: Sony Presents 3-Layer Stacked Sensor for Smartphones). Big sensor photography is actually lagging application.
05-15-2017, 07:54 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The general trend in sensor design has been to increase the number of read-outs where the analog pixel signal goes into an analog-to-digital convertor (ADC) which was on a different chip on the main board. The first CCD sensors had only one read-out: the CCD shift registers moved all the pixel contents to one edge where a second linear CCD register moved the pixel contents to one corner for read-out by a second CCD line. In time, the design evolved to split the frame in halves, quadrants, sub-rectangles to read more pixels in parallel. Increasing the number of ADCs lets one either add more pixels, increase the frame rate, or slow the reading of each pixel (which gives more time for the analog signal to be carefully measured). But the number of ADCs is limited by how many wires can be run from the sensor to the main board.

Sony has moved the ADC on to the sensor chip and seems to have put one ADC for each column or two which enables each pixel to be more slowly and carefully measured. Thus, the A9 chip has something like 3000 or 6000 ADCs. But putting so many ADCs on the sensor creates a second problem of getting all that digital data off the sensor. A stacked design attaches a buffer RAM chip directly to the sensor chip which enables faster handling of the raw sensor data. (Note: there's some added design issues with minimizing rolling-shutter effects that also push the design toward the stacked chip design for the fastest-possible read-out.)

All of this development is actually being pushed by the smartphone market. There's huge pressure on Apple and Samsung to deliver better cameras with high IQ, 4K video, super-slow-motion, etc. Apple buys on the order of $4 billion in camera modules a year which provides a significant financial incentive for Sony to push the envelope. For example, Sony now has a 3-chip stack for smart phones that include the sensor, RAM, and GPU/CPU for doing extremely sophisticated image processing of high frame rate data.(Image Sensors World: Sony Presents 3-Layer Stacked Sensor for Smartphones). Big sensor photography is actually lagging application.
V interesting, thanks for that
05-15-2017, 09:09 AM - 1 Like   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The Olympus is a machine-gun action camera with twin quadcore processors. Great for those who do actually need that performance, but complete overkill for most people and anyway the M43 sensor likely cannot hold a candle to the K1 class of camera when it comes to landscape with good DR and higher ISO and lower light performance. Horses for courses. What may be valuable I guess is the expertise gained in mating that amount of processing power to the "imaging pipeline", so to speak, and the AF system and then managing all the very difficult stuff involving power draw, heat, current, etc. With luck that expertise will then find its way into less costly cameras tuned for more general and less demanding uses. Maybe the lesson if any is that with each new generation of camera, expertise in software and managing sophisticated but also demanding processing power becomes steadily more important.
I don't dispute anything you write here. But I can tell you that for the first and last time in my life, I recently had $2000 to spend on a camera body. And I didn't buy a K-1. I bought the Olympus E-M1 Mark II. So far, I'm not disappointed. There are a lot of factors that go into a decision like this, of course. And it doesn't mean I'm selling off my Pentax gear. But I'm sure there are others like me and Pentax really needs to kick it up a notch.

05-15-2017, 10:17 AM - 2 Likes   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
I don't dispute anything you write here. But I can tell you that for the first and last time in my life, I recently had $2000 to spend on a camera body. And I didn't buy a K-1. I bought the Olympus E-M1 Mark II. So far, I'm not disappointed. There are a lot of factors that go into a decision like this, of course. And it doesn't mean I'm selling off my Pentax gear. But I'm sure there are others like me and Pentax really needs to kick it up a notch.
That's nice. For landscape shooters, the K-1 is about the best you can do. Even for wedding photography, it is a really high end camera. The dynamic range, smoothness of transition all look better than you can get with smaller format. Frame rate is fine as a reason to buy a camera and certainly the Olympus wipes up the floor with the K-1 in that respect, but for stunning landscape photos, I feel like you can't beat K-1 with pixel shift unless you go medium format.



05-15-2017, 11:27 AM   #475
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
"Journalism is printing what someone else doesn't want printed. Everything else is public relations."
- Often attributed to George Orwell but not conclusively so
Somebody should tell that to those politicians who don't like what's being printed or said about them.
05-15-2017, 11:37 AM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Sony now has a 3-chip stack for smart phones that include the sensor, RAM, and GPU/CPU
That using 3D TSV (Through Silicon Vias) [ Through-silicon via - Wikipedia ], a number of semiconductor companies can now do that. Image sensor greatly benefit from this technology because, as you said it, it shorten the tracks to pull out the signals from the sensor. The problem of image sensor with conductive tracks on top (like Canon sensors) is that the thickness and width of tracks is minimized to avoid loss of light reaching the photodiodes, the result of this is slower readout (due to the RC time constant) when the length of tracks increases. Sony already having implemented in the A9, it's possible that Nikon and Pentax will have it first, and Canon may struggle a bit longer.
05-15-2017, 12:01 PM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
I don't dispute anything you write here. But I can tell you that for the first and last time in my life, I recently had $2000 to spend on a camera body. And I didn't buy a K-1. I bought the Olympus E-M1 Mark II. So far, I'm not disappointed. There are a lot of factors that go into a decision like this, of course. And it doesn't mean I'm selling off my Pentax gear. But I'm sure there are others like me and Pentax really needs to kick it up a notch.
Ole, that sounds a great thing to be able to do. I have some Oly equipment and much enjoy using it. It may be interesting to try the E-M1 Mark II's high resolution mode (firm tripod and still scene required) and seeing how it compares to the output from say a K1.
05-15-2017, 12:39 PM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's from integrated circuit engineering: the capacitance of the traces running from the edge of the chip to the pixels grows as the chip grows in size...
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The general trend in sensor design has been to increase the number of read-outs where the analog pixel signal goes into an analog-to-digital convertor (ADC) which was on a different chip on the main board... Big sensor photography is actually lagging application.
I don't know why you bother. Everybody here already knows all this stuff
05-15-2017, 01:02 PM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For landscape shooters, the K-1 is about the best you can do
Yes, and some high profile photo people have said the same.PS is a major advantage....as far as MF goes, yes images are impressive but 3x the price and a new lens $$$$et.Thats a major outlay(even for some pros).




QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Ole, that sounds a great thing to be able to do. I have some Oly equipment and much enjoy using it. It may be interesting to try the E-M1 Mark II's high resolution mode (firm tripod and still scene required) and seeing how it compares to the output from say a K1.
M43 falls short as the light fades.
05-15-2017, 01:19 PM - 2 Likes   #480
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Just wanted to say I've really enjoyed this conversation.

While some posters have asked, why can't we just celebrate the success of the K1, it was the original poster who opened the door. They celebrated the K1, and then made sideways comments about features/approaches they don't like (video etc.) That opened the door to this conversation, where we could all imagine future models and what we might like to see in them.

Kudos Pentax for making the K1, I will almost certainly buy one. And all the best for the future of Pentax, I hope somewhere in that future there is a solid K-mount MILC with good execution of video and stills :-)
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