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05-16-2017, 11:44 AM   #511
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@mee: And I responded to you, just like I said. What's the problem?
This is not a private conversation devoid of any context.

What I'd like is an option to write RAWs alternatively on two cards. This could be used instead of writing to both cards, which slows down buffer clearing quite a lot.
I didn't get the K-1 to shoot in crop mode.

05-16-2017, 06:13 PM   #512
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You quoted my comments in relation to what someone else said, when I was commenting directly about your comments. That's the problem.. it's confusing.


Is both the hardware and software capable of writing alternatively to both card slots? If so I'd like that too if it clears the buffer quicker.

I would really enjoy a 1.2x crop mode and would probably stay there for most shots. I find 36 MP too much.. large files and a lot more upkeep on backing up. I'd shoot 1.2x crop for telephoto and most standard shots, and 1.0x for landscape and the like.

I figured the next firmware would be released by now with the 'promised' IBIS in video feature at least. Perhaps they are delaying it to offer more goodies?
05-16-2017, 06:42 PM   #513
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I think current scenario of

buffer → card

is not working well. It is reckless, cheapo approach that causes endless problems and solves none so well. There should be additional internal memory in the camera, not as expensive as the buffer, but sufficient to make data transfer to cards speedier and without hiccups. It acts like the funnel; without a funnel, one may pour oil from a big can into a small bottle, but the stream must be measured up and slow, or everything becomes a mess. Worst case scenario: funnel keeps the oil in case bottle fills up.

buffer (2GB) → internal RAM or funnel (32 GB) → card (whatever size)

Funnel gets data immediately and starts clearing the buffer, and that data from the funnel is transferred steadily onto cards.

---------- Post added 05-17-2017 at 12:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If I was product manager, I'd make a KP Uluru limited edition, with very deep buffers and I'll charge you 2 grands for it :-)
Deal!
Deep buffer, 32 Gigs of internal RAM and the support for fast SD cards.

---------- Post added 05-17-2017 at 12:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
8 or 12 RAWs? You are lucky to have 8 or 12 RAWs! In them days, the camera could do only one RAW, which you had to spend an hour to develop with nasty smelling chemicals.
When I say camera, I really mean a cardboard shoebox, but it was a camera to us!
Tragically, shooting auto advancing and rewinding film is faster than using today's digital cameras. It takes longer to clear the buffer and transfer the RAW onto the card, unfreeze the camera and be able to shoot again than to advance film automatically and click again.

After ~30 RAWS camera freezes up for 15-20 seconds or more; one can load in a new roll of 36 exposures film in about 20 seconds too!

That is the fundamental problem with Japanese camera manufacturers — their "digital cameras" totally copy film cameras in operation. Today's cameras are slow and those that are of acceptable speed, cost arm and leg. They still haven't sorted our basic computing, data transfer and storage performance for the digital age. And then they wonder why the smartphones are taking over their grounds ...

Last edited by Uluru; 05-16-2017 at 07:46 PM.
05-16-2017, 10:46 PM - 4 Likes   #514
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
After ~30 RAWS camera freezes up for 15-20 seconds or more; one can load in a new roll of 36 exposures film in about 20 seconds too!
It's the same when drinking beer, you must avoid to have full buffer, otherwise you have to wait for long before you can have the next glass. Better drink slowly and enjoy more.

05-16-2017, 11:43 PM   #515
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@Uluru:
There's a problem with the film analogy: with the K-1, you can take another picture well before clearing all the buffer; which you can't do before fully inserting the new roll of film. And, of course, with film you get 36 frames only with fresh film inside... what if the sequence begins when you have 2 or 3 more frames left?
Comparing advancing the film by a motor drive with filling and clearing the buffer is ridiculous, it's like pretending you have an one frame buffer. And the K-1 is the fastest Pentax FF SLR with autofocus, it seems you forgot that.

You are pampered by the current technology, yet still complaining.

Last edited by Kunzite; 05-16-2017 at 11:50 PM.
05-17-2017, 02:28 AM   #516
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@Uluru:
There's a problem with the film analogy: with the K-1, you can take another picture well before clearing all the buffer; which you can't do before fully inserting the new roll of film. And, of course, with film you get 36 frames only with fresh film inside... what if the sequence begins when you have 2 or 3 more frames left?
Comparing advancing the film by a motor drive with filling and clearing the buffer is ridiculous, it's like pretending you have an one frame buffer. And the K-1 is the fastest Pentax FF SLR with autofocus, it seems you forgot that.

You are pampered by the current technology, yet still complaining.
Well, it is probably the biggest negative that I see with the K-1. I don't run into it, but my wife shoots weddings and she writes RAW files to both cards for insurance and it really can fill up the buffer pretty fast and takes awhile to clear. I know there isn't a quick fix, but it would be nice if you could some how just add a stick of memory to it and increase the buffer by 20 RAW files or some such number.

I know that's a silly concept and when the K-1 MK II comes out, it will be better. Shooting landscape and kid photos it never bothers me -- I just don't shoot that long a burst, in general before I am moving to a different location.
05-17-2017, 03:01 AM - 1 Like   #517
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A quick fix can only be a change in workflow. Maybe using to RAW+JPEG instead (on separate cards, switching the cards from time to time...).
We have to live with it, as from what I understand we won't see a K-1 Mk II anytime soon. Well, it's not that bad.

And slow as it is, I managed to fill 2 64GB cards at an airshow
05-17-2017, 03:40 AM   #518
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I think current scenario of

buffer → card

is not working well. It is reckless, cheapo approach that causes endless problems and solves none so well. There should be additional internal memory in the camera, not as expensive as the buffer, but sufficient to make data transfer to cards speedier and without hiccups. It acts like the funnel; without a funnel, one may pour oil from a big can into a small bottle, but the stream must be measured up and slow, or everything becomes a mess. Worst case scenario: funnel keeps the oil in case bottle fills up.

buffer (2GB) → internal RAM or funnel (32 GB) → card (whatever size)

Funnel gets data immediately and starts clearing the buffer, and that data from the funnel is transferred steadily onto cards.

---------- Post added 05-17-2017 at 12:34 PM ----------



Deal!
Deep buffer, 32 Gigs of internal RAM and the support for fast SD cards.

---------- Post added 05-17-2017 at 12:38 PM ----------



Tragically, shooting auto advancing and rewinding film is faster than using today's digital cameras. It takes longer to clear the buffer and transfer the RAW onto the card, unfreeze the camera and be able to shoot again than to advance film automatically and click again.

After ~30 RAWS camera freezes up for 15-20 seconds or more; one can load in a new roll of 36 exposures film in about 20 seconds too!

That is the fundamental problem with Japanese camera manufacturers their "digital cameras" totally copy film cameras in operation. Today's cameras are slow and those that are of acceptable speed, cost arm and leg. They still haven't sorted our basic computing, data transfer and storage performance for the digital age. And then they wonder why the smartphones are taking over their grounds ...
The dilemma is not the camera manufacturers, but rather the limits of data transfer to SDXC cards. Most cards max out at around 250MB/second. Each photo (RAW) is, on average, around 50MB. So, even if the buffer could cope, you'll not get faster data transfer to any SDXC storage medium than around 5 photos per second. I suppose it would be technically possible to have some sort of memory stick / mini harddrive to overcome this problem, but as always, that would make the camera more expensive than it already is and, how many users will want to pay that?

05-17-2017, 05:44 AM   #519
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I think current scenario of

buffer → card

is not working well. It is reckless, cheapo approach that causes endless problems and solves none so well. There should be additional internal memory in the camera, not as expensive as the buffer, but sufficient to make data transfer to cards speedier and without hiccups. It acts like the funnel; without a funnel, one may pour oil from a big can into a small bottle, but the stream must be measured up and slow, or everything becomes a mess. Worst case scenario: funnel keeps the oil in case bottle fills up.

buffer (2GB) → internal RAM or funnel (32 GB) → card (whatever size)

Funnel gets data immediately and starts clearing the buffer, and that data from the funnel is transferred steadily onto cards.
Hmmm... Maybe....

"Buffer" is RAM and it is not that expensive (certainly less than $5/GB). It's not cost-savings that makes Pentax limit the buffer size.

The more likely limitation is power consumption and whether the D-LI90 can support more RAM (plus run the SR system, back panel display, SD card data transfers, Milbeaut CPU, AF motors, mirror motors, etc.). Another possible limitation is physical room to add more RAM chips on the main board inside the camera.

Adding a second bucket or funnel of RAM would make the power problem much much worse because now the CPU and memory buses are handling two transfers of every picture instead of one.

Technology is improving. Each generation of chip feature size comes with a reduction in power consumption (or an increase in chip speed or total capacity). Over time, buffers can get bigger without adding a bigger battery.
05-17-2017, 06:02 AM   #520
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Hmmm... Maybe....

Another possible limitation is physical room to add more RAM chips on the main board inside the camera.

Adding a second bucket or funnel of RAM would make the power problem much much worse because now the CPU and memory buses are handling two transfers of every picture instead of one.

Technology is improving. Each generation of chip feature size comes with a reduction in power consumption (or an increase in chip speed or total capacity). Over time, buffers can get bigger without adding a bigger battery.


Leica T/TL (Leica SL's smaller sister) already has built in RAM (32 GB), and the buffer of course. Also a card slot. Leica, in some fashion, already goes towards this (buffer → RAM disk → card), and the Leica T/TL — let me recall — is one of the slimmest system cameras out there, and the battery life isn't too bad either. I mean, if the TL is thin Angelina Jolie, K3 is Pavarotti, and Angelina manages to squeeze in two PPKs .380 and several magazines without notice? Plus, it has built in flash, and doesn't have physical controls on the back — all is one large touchscreen. All that stuff consumes power.

Tech certainly goes forward, as you say, but only for some companies, it would seem

---------- Post added 05-17-2017 at 11:13 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
The dilemma is not the camera manufacturers, but rather the limits of data transfer to SDXC cards. Most cards max out at around 250MB/second. Each photo (RAW) is, on average, around 50MB. So, even if the buffer could cope, you'll not get faster data transfer to any SDXC storage medium than around 5 photos per second. I suppose it would be technically possible to have some sort of memory stick / mini harddrive to overcome this problem, but as always, that would make the camera more expensive than it already is and, how many users will want to pay that?
It is a valid question. But how many users are lost by avoiding the issue, not sorting out data transfer as it should be done? Opportunity lost is the real cost. I think Japanese camera market suffers now direct consequences of playing their ancient film game forever — smartphones came, run over them, and they learned nothing. Leica gets it, though, but Leica has a different mindset.

Last edited by Uluru; 05-17-2017 at 06:23 AM.
05-17-2017, 06:16 AM - 1 Like   #521
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32GB is not RAM is any way.
Built-in storage, sure but not RAM.
05-17-2017, 06:32 AM - 1 Like   #522
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It's easy to be impressed if you don't understand technology.
RAM is not storage. These Leica likely have some sort of eMMC memory, something like an embedded SD card. I'd rather have 2 SD card slots... and wear is a concern.
I couldn't find data regarding the TL's buffer, except on Imaging Resource: 5fps and 12 frames in JPEG. That's abysmal. Uluru is praising a solution/product which performs much worse than Pentax.
05-17-2017, 07:23 AM - 1 Like   #523
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote

Leica T/TL (Leica SL's smaller sister) already has built in RAM (32 GB), and the buffer of course. Also a card slot. Leica, in some fashion, already goes towards this (buffer → RAM disk → card), and the Leica T/TL let me recall is one of the slimmest system cameras out there, and the battery life isn't too bad either. I mean, if the TL is thin Angelina Jolie, K3 is Pavarotti, and Angelina manages to squeeze in two PPKs .380 and several magazines without notice? Plus, it has built in flash, and doesn't have physical controls on the back all is one large touchscreen. All that stuff consumes power.

Tech certainly goes forward, as you say, but only for some companies, it would seem [COLOR="Silver"]
It looks like that Leica only has a 12 frame buffer and it's not clear what happens when that buffer fills up.

There's no special technology in that Leica. Anyone can make a power sipping camera by using a smaller sensor.

The K-1's buffer (17 frames x 36 Mpix = 504 MPix) is more than 2.5 times larger than the Leica's buffer (12 frames x 16 MPix = 192 MPix) -- so the K-1 needs 2.5 x the power just to keep buffer RAM alive. The K-1 (36 MPix x 4 fps = 144 MPix/sec) has nearly 2X the data rate of the Leica's (16 MPix x 4 fps = 80 MPix/sec) -- so the K-1 needs nearly twice as much power to move data around. And the K-1 has to power a big FF sensor, not a tiny APS-C sensor -- that's also at least a 2X power difference. Oh, and then there's the SR system which the K-1 has and the Leica doesn't.

The power budget issues of a camera are only weakly related to the number of possible shots on a full charge (although I'll note that the K-1 has almost double the shots/charge as the Leica). The bigger issue is the maximum instantaneous current pulled from the battery especially when the battery is older and not fully charged. If the camera tries to do too many tasks at the same time (e.g., shoot another SR-stabilized image while processing/moving a buffered photo to funnel or SD storage), the excessive current draw will pull down the voltage of the battery to the point where the camera locks up. Such power glitches have the potential to lock-up the camera and corrupt the buffer, RAM, and SD card. Needless to say, avoiding data loss is more important that letting the user take another picture.
05-17-2017, 07:45 AM   #524
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It looks like that Leica only has a 12 frame buffer and it's not clear what happens when that buffer fills up.

There's no special technology in that Leica. Anyone can make a power sipping camera by using a smaller sensor.

The K-1's buffer (17 frames x 36 Mpix = 504 MPix) is more than 2.5 times larger than the Leica's buffer (12 frames x 16 MPix = 192 MPix) -- so the K-1 needs 2.5 x the power just to keep buffer RAM alive. The K-1 (36 MPix x 4 fps = 144 MPix/sec) has nearly 2X the data rate of the Leica's (16 MPix x 4 fps = 80 MPix/sec) -- so the K-1 needs nearly twice as much power to move data around. And the K-1 has to power a big FF sensor, not a tiny APS-C sensor -- that's also at least a 2X power difference. Oh, and then there's the SR system which the K-1 has and the Leica doesn't.

The power budget issues of a camera are only weakly related to the number of possible shots on a full charge (although I'll note that the K-1 has almost double the shots/charge as the Leica). The bigger issue is the maximum instantaneous current pulled from the battery especially when the battery is older and not fully charged. If the camera tries to do too many tasks at the same time (e.g., shoot another SR-stabilized image while processing/moving a buffered photo to funnel or SD storage), the excessive current draw will pull down the voltage of the battery to the point where the camera locks up. Such power glitches have the potential to lock-up the camera and corrupt the buffer, RAM, and SD card. Needless to say, avoiding data loss is more important that letting the user take another picture.
I know you aren't addressing me, but I think at this point, the K-1 is what it is and to me, that is pretty awesome. I guess it says something that we are quibbling about fairly small things like buffer size, rather than image quality.

Wedding photography is definitely a different animal. It would freak me out to do it, but it is sort of a one chance deal and so it is understandable that wedding photographers are pretty compulsive -- backing up images in multiple places, etc. There are not very many burst situations, but certainly walking in and out and a few other situations it would be handy to have a little deeper buffer or faster card writing speed to empty the buffer a little faster. Once it fills, it is aggravating to wait.

On a personal note, I have learned not to try to delete a file while the camera is still writing it. This really does lock up the camera until every image is written to the card, which can be awhile.
05-17-2017, 07:50 AM   #525
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It could also be a limitation of the chipset, AFAIK the Milbeaut M-8m can only use 1.5GB (3x 512MB modules).
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