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05-21-2017, 12:18 AM   #571
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why are we even talking about Apple? Their ideas can't possibly work for enthusiast-level cameras. A K-1-level Apple-like camera would appear neat, extremely compelling and well designed, outright beautiful... until you'd try to use it. Then, it would all fall apart horribly.
no offense here, but... thats just wrong.
Go to a Camera RENTAL SERVICE
rent a LEICA SL and try to use it,
...It is very close to the Apple-Design-Directive...
you will see that is very much of a camera, easy to use, settings are done very fast and it wont fall apart in any way.
(admitted... you will have to play around with the firmware and take a closer look at it for 5min)
It is as amazing in using it as it is in its image quality... The only thing one could nag about is the cold and a bit too edgy shape of the body or respectively its grip.
(PARK CAMERAs in London allowed me to test the camera for a while)

05-21-2017, 02:10 AM   #572
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Nope, I'm not wrong at all. There are two principles here:
- interfaces are built around conventions. A well designed interface which doesn't go with the established conventions is simply confusing.
- hard controls are good. You can use them with glove, they give you fast access to settings; soft controls should be complimentary and not a substitute.

First time I tried the S2, I've spent minutes together with the gentlemen at the Leica stand trying to figure out how to make a simple setting. DPReview's SL reviewer reported similar issues. Oh, sure, you can learn the interface and get used to it... but that doesn't make it better, nor easier to use.
Another example, the Samsung/smartphone hybrids; they're horrible.

And of course, the image quality has nothing to do with what we're discussing... although I wonder if it can reach the K-1
05-21-2017, 09:04 AM   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Nope, I'm not wrong at all. There are two principles here:
- interfaces are built around conventions. A well designed interface which doesn't go with the established conventions is simply confusing.
- hard controls are good. You can use them with glove, they give you fast access to settings; soft controls should be complimentary and not a substitute.

First time I tried the S2, I've spent minutes together with the gentlemen at the Leica stand trying to figure out how to make a simple setting. DPReview's SL reviewer reported similar issues. Oh, sure, you can learn the interface and get used to it... but that doesn't make it better, nor easier to use.
Another example, the Samsung/smartphone hybrids; they're horrible.

And of course, the image quality has nothing to do with what we're discussing... although I wonder if it can reach the K-1
hard controls are good but only if not redundant.
i think you should rent it. - i would allow myself to say that the atmosphere in ANY camera store is a bit oppressed compared to having time at home,
by the way, i was talking about the Leica SL. Leicas Q is also worth a look...
Believe me, a bit of training and settings go easy on you as cake.

S2 is a whole other thing. I also liked it... somehow... why only somehow, because
you are just right, the Leica S2 is in no way a competition for the PENTAX K-1. It falls behind as bad as can get.
(even the K-5II i owned at that time was superior to the Leica S2 at an IQ above ISO 400)

But the Leica SL is a whole other story.
The IQ is 100% as it is on the Leica Q. Especially because the lenses are really made for that very own sensor.
I admit, i miss a front e-dial...
05-21-2017, 07:15 PM   #574
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
But the Leica SL is a whole other story. [/I]The IQ is 100% as it is on the Leica Q. Especially because the lenses are really made for that very own sensor.
I admit, i miss a front e-dial...
That's right.

Leica Q, any Leica X or M, and Leica T/TL are easy as breeze. T/TL is easier to use than an iPhone.
All of them are easier to setup and use than any current Pentax camera.

The other day I tried the KP and took me ages to figure out how to select certain things (correct AF setup and AF points); so much has changed since K5, and is more complicated. (The looks is finer, options are not. Although the new top wheel is fine addition, but again, one needs to know how to setup options on it, and it takes a while.)

But I took the Leica Q and I was at home. It is more intuitive, because it has less really complicating options which Ricoh Imaging squeezes in their DSLRs 'to add on value'.

I mean, with no exaggeration — the K-1 and the KP are the most complicated DSLRs world has ever seen and I see why Ricoh Imaging introduced all these extra knobs and extra controls. Leica T, and Pentax K-1, are cameras on two opposite sides of the UI approach.


Last edited by Uluru; 05-21-2017 at 07:25 PM.
05-21-2017, 11:19 PM   #575
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
You should just buy the new Sony A9 with a 200 shot RAW (400 shot JPG) buffer. Or for just a little more, you can buy 3 K-1s and hang them all around your neck. As one buffer fills, just pick up the next one and carry on.
The features you want have a cost associated with them. It's easy to engineer something in a vacuum with no consideration for cost.
As stated previously, when components are cheap, real cost is the opportunity lost. If the smart strategy is developed, then the cost can be shared throughout the lineup, game upped quite a bit.
Memory is very cheap these days, thanks to smartphones nonetheless, but the company like Sony uses that lack of wits in their competitors to appear ahead of the game in the camera market, and charge tenfold for basically minimal extra cost.
Blame the backwards game of the Japanese camera manufacturers, who are stuck in 2007. It is really time now for others to wake up. I don't expect Ricoh Imaging to introduce anything so simple (they can only develop really obscure and very complicated stuff), but rather, my hopes are on Nikon. They are pressured to be different, and bring more power. If Nikon does it, then Ricoh Imaging must follow.
05-21-2017, 11:52 PM   #576
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1.5GB supported by the Milbeaut processor?
If this is the case, adding more memory is anything but cheap.

QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
hard controls are good but only if not redundant.
Hmm... for a while, Apple thought that more than one button on a mouse is redundant.
The ideal would be a camera with one button only - completely non-redundant. No memory card, images would be stored internally and uploaded to an equivalent of iTunes. No processing possible, because that gives you choice and choice is bad. DRM-protected images, so you can only see them how and when you're allowed to.
05-22-2017, 01:30 AM - 3 Likes   #577
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I don't expect Ricoh Imaging to introduce anything so simple (they can only develop really obscure and very complicated stuff), but rather, my hopes are on Nikon. They are pressured to be different, and bring more power. If Nikon does it, then Ricoh Imaging must follow.
05-22-2017, 02:26 AM - 1 Like   #578
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And, to compare with the one who'd do it simpler:
HD Action & Video Cameras | Nikon


05-22-2017, 02:56 AM - 2 Likes   #579
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The question is really whether people want to give up features in order to have a "clean" interface. I use the pixel shift feature a lot, use TAv mode quite a bit, and find having multiple buttons on the back combined with three dials to be really useful on the K-1. But it could seem overwhelming to a brand new photographer as well.

I look at the Leica SL and think "This is 50 percent of a K-1 for three times the price." I don't care if the interface is slick, I don't think I would want it. But honestly, people buy Leica for two reasons, the lenses and the cachet that comes with the name. I don't have the money for the lenses and I don't care about cachet.
05-22-2017, 03:13 AM   #580
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
As stated previously, when components are cheap, real cost is the opportunity lost. If the smart strategy is developed, then the cost can be shared throughout the lineup, game upped quite a bit.
Memory is very cheap these days, thanks to smartphones nonetheless, but the company like Sony uses that lack of wits in their competitors to appear ahead of the game in the camera market, and charge tenfold for basically minimal extra cost.
Blame the backwards game of the Japanese camera manufacturers, who are stuck in 2007. It is really time now for others to wake up. I don't expect Ricoh Imaging to introduce anything so simple (they can only develop really obscure and very complicated stuff), but rather, my hopes are on Nikon. They are pressured to be different, and bring more power. If Nikon does it, then Ricoh Imaging must follow.
It looks as if Hasselblad's new X1D is aiming in the same direction as Leica? The irony is that elegant simplicity combined with very modern design and a really well thought-through UI is usually the preserve of higher-end items, just the segment you'd think a smaller player like Ricoh would be aiming for. But even if Ricoh might like to go in that direction, they probably can't because the Pentax user base is mostly very traditional and conservative. Send in the Marines - Pentax has been taken hostage by a band of ruthless oldsters, lol. Well, that's just the way it is. Ricoh can do this with new things like Theta, however, because they are starting with a clean sheet and a different brand.

I would not pin too many hopes on Nikon.They may still be dominated by quite old school types who did all their study and training in the analogue era. To achieve the kind of thing you are suggesting, I would guess that very bright younger people need to be hired, given enough freedom to achieve something and over time formed into a real team. Talent + time. I'm not sure there is any news that Nikon have been out hiring the best and brightest. The management changes Nikon announce seem to be shifting the deck chairs around rather than bringing in serious new talent from outside the company. Still, maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-22-2017 at 03:24 AM.
05-22-2017, 04:51 AM - 2 Likes   #581
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
the Pentax user base is mostly very traditional and conservative. Send in the Marines - Pentax has been taken hostage by a band of ruthless oldsters, lol.
Hmm - yes and no - I think that when a lot of the older members bought into the brand, Pentax was anything but unadventurous - and Pentax has always been quirky, even after it dropped off the cutting edge. I don't think that the person drawn to Pentax is conservative at all - they just don't want Pentax t lose the things that make it Pentax - and maybe worry about not being able to use their treasured glassware from bygone eras - but I don't think that's the same as conservative.
05-22-2017, 06:35 AM - 3 Likes   #582
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The K-1 is designed to be a camera that isn't too expensive that is useful in lots of different situations. Clearly that is why Pentax made the decisions they did and I think they did so wisely.

Faster frame rates, deeper buffers, 4K video, different interface all would have added considerably to the cost of the camera and may have done little to add users to the Pentax fold. I can't imagine if Pentax released a 7500 dollar full frame camera completely with 1600 dollar primes to accompany it. The hue and cry would have been crazy, even if it had 4K video and a Leica interface.

Last edited by Rondec; 05-23-2017 at 02:31 AM.
05-22-2017, 11:29 AM   #583
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I dont know why one should give up features for having less wheels on a camera...
Is there actually any logic in that?

and i really want you to understand rondec that this is not about the k-1 directly, because what is done already cant be undone and i think its quite OK for the price, given the fact that the used an old sensor and rather lame microelectronics.(before the hike)
the body is rock solid and that alone would rectify the price the K-1 started at. so i hope you understand that this is about the future and not the past.

When you look on the Leica SL, you can think that it is inferior to a K-1 but that doesnt make it the truth...
Since the Leica SL offers(except Pixelshift and Astrotracer) so much more that is profitable for a real photographer.
It is the only camera that can conquer the specs of Sonys A9 and offers a far superior image quality, when you look at 100% zooms.

And yes, you also pay for the name LEICA, that is indeed indisputable. Nonetheless i want to notice that you also pay for very dedicated and tack sharp lenses that are built rock solid.

Guys, stop worrying about the production costs. It is not often the case that this really is what makes things expensive.
And if Sony can do a decent camera for 2.500-2.600 Euros - (A99 Mark 2 is down a bit in some stores in Europe), why the heck exactly do you believe that the K-1 successor would cost a whopping 7500 if they spare themselves 2 wheels that actually are weak points in a mechanical way and for weathersealing?
one often reads about malfunctioning buttons on cameras
see: K-1 Dial mode problem (all models or early models only)? - PentaxForums.com -- for further info. (buttons are way less prone to failure and much easier to seal)
And FYI, keep in mind that the "smc FA 31 / 1,8 AL Limited" costs a whopping 1499 Euros already what would be about 1684 Dollars.
nonetheless ther is a cheap an dirty alternative called "smc PENTAX-DA 35 mm F2,4 AL" that costs about 149 Euros...
Pentax never had a problem offering "as good as can get"(the nifty 35 offers really great IQ) cheap alternatives to its professional line


but back to the point. Why should PENTAX start to charge more for its cameras if it goes back to the more simple and clean design directives of ... lets say... K-5 and K-7 bodies?
Nobody said they would have to do it the LEICA way...
There are so many ways to achieve the possibility to make lightning fast settings, that all literally remain untapped.
long pushes on buttons could add second functions(f.i.)... the four way dial could be completely customizable...(f.i.)
but the possibilities to make the cam look less crammed are endless. 2 special buttons next to ISO and EV-correction buttons would have done f.i. - push button and dial in setting on rear e-dial is also a good and established solution that would have left space and provided a more calm look for this very calm dslr-body.
and that would be far enough possibilities for me, since most people dont really change every setting every time they take the cam back in their hands.

Its not that i want to say, just add the Leica interface; Completely misinterpreted.
I just stay with my word and say: "Take back that FUJI-pain back to fuji - and let PENTAX find itself again."
I am sure that i am not alone when i say : "I want the next -big gun- from ricoh-imaging to focus on core functions and not on wheel- and display-geekery."


Lets be honest, who would NOT have bought the Pentax K-1 if it had a simpler looking body???
Do real PENTAXIANs feel attracted to that overloaded design?
I dont think so.

off-topic sidenote: We are on NETFLIX!! "Stranger Things" really features PENTAX brand-name placement... (happy as f...)

05-22-2017, 03:45 PM - 1 Like   #584
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
I dont know why one should give up features for having less wheels on a camera...
Is there actually any logic in that?

and i really want you to understand rondec that this is not about the k-1 directly, because what is done already cant be undone and i think its quite OK for the price, given the fact that the used an old sensor and rather lame microelectronics.(before the hike)
the body is rock solid and that alone would rectify the price the K-1 started at. so i hope you understand that this is about the future and not the past.

When you look on the Leica SL, you can think that it is inferior to a K-1 but that doesnt make it the truth...
Since the Leica SL offers(except Pixelshift and Astrotracer) so much more that is profitable for a real photographer.
It is the only camera that can conquer the specs of Sonys A9 and offers a far superior image quality, when you look at 100% zooms.

And yes, you also pay for the name LEICA, that is indeed indisputable. Nonetheless i want to notice that you also pay for very dedicated and tack sharp lenses that are built rock solid.

Guys, stop worrying about the production costs. It is not often the case that this really is what makes things expensive.
And if Sony can do a decent camera for 2.500-2.600 Euros - (A99 Mark 2 is down a bit in some stores in Europe), why the heck exactly do you believe that the K-1 successor would cost a whopping 7500 if they spare themselves 2 wheels that actually are weak points in a mechanical way and for weathersealing?
one often reads about malfunctioning buttons on cameras
see: K-1 Dial mode problem (all models or early models only)? - PentaxForums.com -- for further info. (buttons are way less prone to failure and much easier to seal)
And FYI, keep in mind that the "smc FA 31 / 1,8 AL Limited" costs a whopping 1499 Euros already what would be about 1684 Dollars.
nonetheless ther is a cheap an dirty alternative called "smc PENTAX-DA 35 mm F2,4 AL" that costs about 149 Euros...
Pentax never had a problem offering "as good as can get"(the nifty 35 offers really great IQ) cheap alternatives to its professional line


but back to the point. Why should PENTAX start to charge more for its cameras if it goes back to the more simple and clean design directives of ... lets say... K-5 and K-7 bodies?
Nobody said they would have to do it the LEICA way...
There are so many ways to achieve the possibility to make lightning fast settings, that all literally remain untapped.
long pushes on buttons could add second functions(f.i.)... the four way dial could be completely customizable...(f.i.)
but the possibilities to make the cam look less crammed are endless. 2 special buttons next to ISO and EV-correction buttons would have done f.i. - push button and dial in setting on rear e-dial is also a good and established solution that would have left space and provided a more calm look for this very calm dslr-body.
and that would be far enough possibilities for me, since most people dont really change every setting every time they take the cam back in their hands.

Its not that i want to say, just add the Leica interface; Completely misinterpreted.
I just stay with my word and say: "Take back that FUJI-pain back to fuji - and let PENTAX find itself again."
I am sure that i am not alone when i say : "I want the next -big gun- from ricoh-imaging to focus on core functions and not on wheel- and display-geekery."


Lets be honest, who would NOT have bought the Pentax K-1 if it had a simpler looking body???
Do real PENTAXIANs feel attracted to that overloaded design?
I dont think so.

off-topic sidenote: We are on NETFLIX!! "Stranger Things" really features PENTAX brand-name placement... (happy as f...)

I think this thread specifically was about the K-1. That is where the discussion started and was specifically about whether the K-1 was drawing any photographers away from other brands.

For what its worth, I feel like you have two options -- lots of external buttons or menu diving. How else do you access features like shake reduction, pixel shift, gps, video, astro tracer, etc. As to what the SL is worth, I personally would rather have a 645z if I am going to spend that much for a camera, but I suppose opinions differ. Hard to imagine the average photographer making that much more with the Leica than they would with a K-1 or even a D750, even if the lenses are "rock solid."
05-22-2017, 04:10 PM - 2 Likes   #585
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
Lets be honest, who would NOT have bought the Pentax K-1 if it had a simpler looking body???
Do real PENTAXIANs feel attracted to that overloaded design?
I dont think so.

[/SIZE]
Me! In fact, I would never have moved to Pentax if they had practiced simplicity. I don't think the K-1 has enough wheels. Shutter time, aperture, ISO, and EV should each have their own dedicated wheels.

And it's not just about geekery. Rondec is right. Clean design means less accessible controls (or no controls) and more cognitive load in remembering how to access functionality. I don't want one button that does five different things depending on how I press it, I want five buttons.

I love the K-1 for the breadth of controls and how few button presses I need to change so many of the camera's controls.
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