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05-22-2017, 04:46 PM - 1 Like   #586
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Me! In fact, I would never have moved to Pentax if they had practiced simplicity. I don't think the K-1 has enough wheels. Shutter time, aperture, ISO, and EV should each have their own dedicated wheels.

And it's not just about geekery. Rondec is right. Clean design means less accessible controls (or no controls) and more cognitive load in remembering how to access functionality. I don't want one button that does five different things depending on how I press it, I want five buttons.

I love the K-1 for the breadth of controls and how few button presses I need to change so many of the camera's controls.
I agree. Trying to shoot in cold weather, with gloves, and bigger buttons, more wheels etc all makes sense. Plus, I have big hands!

05-22-2017, 10:38 PM   #587
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why are we even talking about Apple? Their ideas can't possibly work for enthusiast-level cameras. A K-1-level Apple-like camera would appear neat, extremely compelling and well designed, outright beautiful... until you'd try to use it. Then, it would all fall apart horribly.
That is questionable assertion, because we really don't have a more recognised Japanese alternative.

I think Leica T is a very good enthusiast camera, but people ignore it because it is Leica, and rather expensive. However, it has no buttons in the back. It has RAM and SD card too, it works even in case user loses SD cards, or the SD cards are full, or simply forgets it. So I don't see how bad that approach really is, when it sits right in between traditional operation camera, and a smartphone.

Just imagine how frustrating would be if in user's iPhone 8 Siri voice says ,"Sorry, you forgot an SD card; can't take pictures'.
But that is the experience granted with a "dedicated digital Japanese camera"!!

But Leica T addresses that frustrating issue at least. Camera has two dials too, aperture and shutter speed can adjusted on the fly and basically that is TAv mode. With today's sensors being very efficient, allowing 2-3 stops of corrections, how much plausible is adding a big knob for 1/3 stop of eV adjustment?! I mean, many cameras still operate like in early ages of slow film, where every third of stop mattered, and yet sensors today are simply incredible.

This industry is so weird and has not worked out to bridge huge chasm in between how cameras are designed, and what sensors and data share allow.

I dare say Leica T is there to address that big problem, and I only hope there will be more cameras to attempt that. Until then, we are still in stone age.

Last edited by Uluru; 05-22-2017 at 11:03 PM.
05-22-2017, 11:49 PM   #588
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What is questionable is your refusal to learn what RAM is.

The Leica TL interface can't possibly be superior to the Pentax one, because it lack essential hard controls. Anything that gets the experience closer to a smartphone can't possibly be superior; because as a photographic tool, a smartphone is an exercise in frustration.
Except for posting lunch pictures on Facebook.
05-23-2017, 12:04 AM   #589
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Me! In fact, I would never have moved to Pentax if they had practiced simplicity. I don't think the K-1 has enough wheels. Shutter time, aperture, ISO, and EV should each have their own dedicated wheels.

And it's not just about geekery. Rondec is right. Clean design means less accessible controls (or no controls) and more cognitive load in remembering how to access functionality. I don't want one button that does five different things depending on how I press it, I want five buttons.

I love the K-1 for the breadth of controls and how few button presses I need to change so many of the camera's controls.
Absolutely - we have to remember that a camera is a tool, and function should always win over form in a tool - if you can make it look nice (and Pentax do, most of the time) without sacrificing functionality, so much the better, but looks should never trump usefulness.

05-23-2017, 12:19 AM   #590
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Me! In fact, I would never have moved to Pentax if they had practiced simplicity. I don't think the K-1 has enough wheels. Shutter time, aperture, ISO, and EV should each have their own dedicated wheels.

And it's not just about geekery. Rondec is right. Clean design means less accessible controls (or no controls) and more cognitive load in remembering how to access functionality. I don't want one button that does five different things depending on how I press it, I want five buttons.

I love the K-1 for the breadth of controls and how few button presses I need to change so many of the camera's controls.
Me too! I find the K-1 looks and ergonomics wonderful resulting in a packed with features camera that is so simple to use.

@camyum your assumptions and statements couldn't be more far from the truth. When you get to hold and use the K-1 you will see why K-1 users are excited about it. I also love the wheels and the fact that I have all my main controls without having to go into the camera menu. On the other hand you can buy the K-1 eradicate those wheels that annoy you and set your camera through the menu... Don't forget to tap the holes to retain the weather sealing (as you see Pentax offers solutions for every photographer )
05-23-2017, 01:48 AM   #591
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
That is questionable assertion, because we really don't have a more recognised Japanese alternative.

I think Leica T is a very good enthusiast camera, but people ignore it because it is Leica, and rather expensive. However, it has no buttons in the back. It has RAM and SD card too, it works even in case user loses SD cards, or the SD cards are full, or simply forgets it. So I don't see how bad that approach really is, when it sits right in between traditional operation camera, and a smartphone.

Just imagine how frustrating would be if in user's iPhone 8 Siri voice says ,"Sorry, you forgot an SD card; can't take pictures'.
But that is the experience granted with a "dedicated digital Japanese camera"!!

But Leica T addresses that frustrating issue at least. Camera has two dials too, aperture and shutter speed can adjusted on the fly and basically that is TAv mode. With today's sensors being very efficient, allowing 2-3 stops of corrections, how much plausible is adding a big knob for 1/3 stop of eV adjustment?! I mean, many cameras still operate like in early ages of slow film, where every third of stop mattered, and yet sensors today are simply incredible.

This industry is so weird and has not worked out to bridge huge chasm in between how cameras are designed, and what sensors and data share allow.

I dare say Leica T is there to address that big problem, and I only hope there will be more cameras to attempt that. Until then, we are still in stone age.
Very good points. But people are too complex to be shoehorned into one design camp or the other. Some will love the design ideas behind the Leica T or similar things but for others all the buttons and dials are the user experience and they wouldn't enjoy their cameras nearly so much without them. Some people prefer a lens with full manual focus on a long-throw and an aperture right to focus by wire and aperture control on the camera even if the practical results are the same.

To some extent, time will smooth this one out. A younger generation raised on the design ideas of the smartphone won't miss the traditional camera designs nearly so much, though some will of course. They seem to have a much more sensible idea towards new technology. They want it to help them in their creativity and work by automating the boring bits and handling other bits intelligently - but generally not get in the way. Tuning and adjustments can all be done in post prod, afterwards. That's the point of having the tech to begin with. You capture, but what you do with the capture does not have to be fixed at the time. It's plastic, just bits and bytes, and with intelligent software it can be reshaped in many different ways. Pretty well everything about the original capture can be altered. The limit is one's creativity.

I wonder if Japan is really the correct place to be looking for brilliant innovation? Maybe today it is but in the recent past Japanese industry was where one looked for brilliant iteration, not innovation. Maybe the Japanese imaging industry has still to work out how to break with the analogue past a little more rather than repeat it in ever more sophisticated ways.
05-23-2017, 02:35 AM - 2 Likes   #592
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The goal is to be able to change settings quickly without removing your eye from the viewfinder. Any camera where you can do that is a success, any camera that requires removal of the camera from your eye and fiddling around with things is a failure, even if the back looks really nice and "clean."
05-23-2017, 02:42 AM   #593
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The goal is to be able to change settings quickly without removing your eye from the viewfinder. Any camera where you can do that is a success, any camera that requires removal of the camera from your eye and fiddling around with things is a failure, even if the back looks really nice and "clean."
True only if you use a viewfinder to begin with. An increasing number of people don't. They use the rear screen and use touch control to change something. Hence a camera like the Canon M6 - or the Leica T. I quite often shoot off the rear screen when doing street photography. Also helps with a lower angle; by using a tilting rear screen you can still line up the shot waist-high. Niether is better or worse of course, just different paths to the same end - a great image.

05-23-2017, 02:47 AM - 1 Like   #594
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I disagree about smartphone-educated youngster having a more sensible idea towards new technology - their idea is born from lack of knowledge/alternatives. They're mistakenly thinking that every interface should look like their smartphone's, regardless if it makes sense or not.
Most likely, people like me have the sensible approach; as instead of "is it cool?", what I'm asking is: "does it work well? Is there any problem that it solves, is there any issue that it introduces?".

A non-camera example: cars. Would you like controls like radio, HVAC to be controlled by touch screens instead of buttons and dials? That's a safety issue as well as an ergonomic one; once you're familiar enough with the vehicle, you can use the hard controls interface without looking (i.e. while paying attention to the road). Here, the stake is not lost images, but your life.

A touchscreen-based interface is fine for many applications, but you'd be gravely mistaken if you consider it superior. For a serious photographic tool, it isn't; try using it without looking (lack of tactile feedback, positioning), try using it in rain (touchscreen technology limitations - yes, I have a waterproof smartphone), try using it with gloves. Try using it in a hurry.
The Pentax interface is incredibly easy to operate, in any condition. If those youngsters would give it a serious try, they'd reach the same conclusion.
05-23-2017, 02:50 AM   #595
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
True only if you use a viewfinder to begin with. An increasing number of people don't. They use the rear screen and use touch control to change something. Hence a camera like the Canon M6 - or the Leica T. I quite often shoot off the rear screen when doing street photography. Also helps with a lower angle; by using a tilting rear screen you can still line up the shot waist-high. Niether is better or worse of course, just different paths to the same end - a great image.
That's fine. I do use the rear LCD some times -- usually if I am on a tripod or want a different angle, but the level of stabilization you get in those situations is sub optimal. Having the camera stabilized with your arms in at your side and at your face gives significantly better results in most situations.

I have a K-01 and there are many times that I wish it had a viewfinder...
05-23-2017, 03:43 AM   #596
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
That's fine. I do use the rear LCD some times -- usually if I am on a tripod or want a different angle, but the level of stabilization you get in those situations is sub optimal. Having the camera stabilized with your arms in at your side and at your face gives significantly better results in most situations.

I have a K-01 and there are many times that I wish it had a viewfinder...
Agreed, but smaller and lighter cameras like the Canon M6 make outstretched arms easier to manage especially in the case of M43 when combined with very good IBIS. It's no barrier for most folks. Increasingly the tech is probably all there to accommodate a range of shooting styles except for the big heavy stuff at the higher end when a good posture really makes a difference. That said, a camera without a VF wouldn't be much fun for me. I enjoy using one at least most of the time.
05-23-2017, 04:35 AM   #597
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I disagree about smartphone-educated youngster having a more sensible idea towards new technology - their idea is born from lack of knowledge/alternatives. They're mistakenly thinking that every interface should look like their smartphone's, regardless if it makes sense or not.
Most likely, people like me have the sensible approach; as instead of "is it cool?", what I'm asking is: "does it work well? Is there any problem that it solves, is there any issue that it introduces?".

A non-camera example: cars. Would you like controls like radio, HVAC to be controlled by touch screens instead of buttons and dials? That's a safety issue as well as an ergonomic one; once you're familiar enough with the vehicle, you can use the hard controls interface without looking (i.e. while paying attention to the road). Here, the stake is not lost images, but your life.

A touchscreen-based interface is fine for many applications, but you'd be gravely mistaken if you consider it superior. For a serious photographic tool, it isn't; try using it without looking (lack of tactile feedback, positioning), try using it in rain (touchscreen technology limitations - yes, I have a waterproof smartphone), try using it with gloves. Try using it in a hurry.
The Pentax interface is incredibly easy to operate, in any condition. If those youngsters would give it a serious try, they'd reach the same conclusion.
Not disagreing with you, actually the opposite, but have you seen how modern cars control radio, AC, etc.? It's all via a touch screen.
I prefer the way of using buttons for each major function. In cameras it means you can quickly change settings, in cars it means you can keep your eyes on the road while changing the aircon or whatever.
But it looks good, so who cares...
The K1's third wheel would've been very useful the other day for changing from low to high speed continuous.
05-23-2017, 05:20 AM   #598
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Agreed, but smaller and lighter cameras like the Canon M6 make outstretched arms easier to manage especially in the case of M43 when combined with very good IBIS. It's no barrier for most folks. Increasingly the tech is probably all there to accommodate a range of shooting styles except for the big heavy stuff at the higher end when a good posture really makes a difference. That said, a camera without a VF wouldn't be much fun for me. I enjoy using one at least most of the time.
So true!

Not only are outstretched arms less stable and harder to control, but it means composing on a tiny sun-bleached screen. To match the visual size of the K-1's viewfinder, a back panel display held by outstretched arms must be the size of a tablet computer (on the order of 11-13" diagonal).

Arms-length image composition on a tiny screen is literally like watching a movie on a smartphone (in broad daylight) instead of a movie theater -- most the details are invisible. That's fine for casual snapshots and inane selfies but unusable for critical framing and composition.
05-23-2017, 05:33 AM   #599
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The goal is to be able to change settings quickly without removing your eye from the viewfinder. Any camera where you can do that is a success, any camera that requires removal of the camera from your eye and fiddling around with things is a failure, even if the back looks really nice and "clean."
In photography, three factors are defining the outcome: (1) the aperture, (2) shutter speed, and (3) sensitivity.

Leica T controls (1) and (2) directly via knobs (same as a Pentax DSLR), and (3) is floating ISO, found as a preset in today's cameras, but was impossible in film era. With today's sensors, controlling of sensitivity for majority of consumer photography is almost eliminated in everyday circumstances, because of the superb sensor tech.
Multisegment metering, TTL and AF are also superb nowadays when compared to only 10 years ago. I mean, incredible sensors and incredible tech are given for granted, but cameras still look and operate like 30-60 years ago? When I look at today's Fujifilm's cameras, I get a heart attack!

Therefore Leica T needed no extra stuff anywhere because two knobs control all that must be controlled. It uses modern sensors, metering, AF, white balance, modern optics, etc. If one really needs something extra to control, it is quickly available from very large menus. Also menus can be customised, so that only those users really wants are on the screen! (no need to dive through same but endless menus over and over again!)

But look at the Japanese consumer cameras — they are just scaled down versions of large complicated cameras. And even such small cameras, still demand an SD card to operate, and the software is abysmal; horizontal menu driven via buttons, while buttons are so tiny that hardly can be pressed! I mean, what the …

And take a closer look, please — that entire camera segment suffers now, and is overrun by the smartphones.

I wonder why!

---------- Post added 05-23-2017 at 10:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Here, the stake is not lost images, but your life.
My old driving instructor always said, both hands should be on the steering wheel at all times, and in correct position. So no knobs either — everything is distraction when driving, even some music a person in the passenger seat may change or play for us. And as for passengers, seat belts should also go across their mouths.


QuoteQuote:
A touchscreen-based interface is fine for many applications, but you'd be gravely mistaken if you consider it superior. For a serious photographic tool, it isn't; try using it without looking (lack of tactile feedback, positioning), try using it in rain (touchscreen technology limitations - yes, I have a waterproof smartphone), try using it with gloves. Try using it in a hurry.
The Pentax interface is incredibly easy to operate, in any condition. If those youngsters would give it a serious try, they'd reach the same conclusion.
I would not say knobs and dials are ideal for serious photographic tool; they are only necessary for a very complicated and very heavy photographic tool. Pentax DSLRs are good imaging devices, but they are the most complicated and feature rich cameras in business, and generally are not light. And that is even with basic video features; I wonder how more complicated they will get with more advanced video! Most of those features are not essential; they are bonuses. But there are so many of them, that they beg for a complicated layout of hard controls to use them well.

On the other hand, seriousness is not dictated by the level of operating richness, but by the use of crucial imaging features that allow great results despite lack of bonuses.

As previously stated, photography directly depends only on (1) aperture, (2) shutter speed and (3) sensitivity, and if the control of those three is easy, camera can be quite simple and yet very serious too. It is serious if the components used to control these three, the quality of the sensor, the quality of optics, the quality of material, and the quality of digital data transfer/manipulation are serious.

In addition, heavy cameras benefit from more buttons and knobs because in order to hold such a camera and lens, and still use its features, fingers can move only so little. Lighter cameras like Leica T benefit from a less complicated approach, but lighter cameras can be very, very serious.

Last edited by Uluru; 05-23-2017 at 06:31 AM.
05-23-2017, 06:01 AM   #600
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
(...)

And take a closer look, please that entire camera segment suffers now, and is overrun by the smartphones.

(...)
Shipment of mirrorless cameras, Q1 2017 compared to Q1 2016: +45% in units and +36.6% in sales.

I know of many companies that would be delighted to suffer that way.

Source: CIPA figures.
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