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05-23-2017, 01:12 PM - 1 Like   #616
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@cali92rs:
I've made quite a strong point in the previous posts, if you care to read. Hard controls are ideal for many applications.

So it's a popularity contest now? The best food must be at McDonalds!

---------- Post added 23-05-17 at 11:17 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
+1 for admitting that ...
thats a truth not even the most "exerted" sarcasm cant cover...
Why, do you think I have any qualm admitting something every K-1 owner knows?

Besides, it's no big deal, as it doesn't get in your way. You know what's bad? Having 3 ways of zooming the lens, yet none for manual focus.

05-23-2017, 01:31 PM - 2 Likes   #617
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Touch screens are OK. I find them tough to operate in a variety of situations -- particularly any time that I have moisture on my fingers. Try working out and trying to answer your iphone. It sucks and in that moment, you would really like to have a button to push to answer rather than a touch screen to swipe. Trying to view a screen in really bright light can be suboptimal as well.

There is an info screen on most Pentax cameras where you can control a lot of features and if you choose to shoot in green mode, Av, or P mode and never touch the buttons, then you have your perfect interface.

I have never understand why the fact that an extra button or feature is added to a camera makes people so upset. If you don't like, just don't use it, right? Most modern cameras are super-simple if you shoot in the right mode, they just give additional options for control for people who understand and what that control.
05-23-2017, 01:44 PM   #618
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@cali92rs:
I've made quite a strong point in the previous posts, if you care to read. Hard controls are ideal for many applications.

So it's a popularity contest now? The best food must be at McDonalds!
+1 also for your point and +1 for the sarcasm

-'t just if-> those "hard controls" are not redundant or swappable with already existant hard controls.

and lets just presume, that the function dial is a sonso, quite OK idea..

wouldnt you concur with me just an incy wincy bit, if i go so far and say the "setting-wheel" is literally as "superabundant" as the GPS button is, when RICOH could/should place the GPS function on the function dial, as well as the illumination function and in result of this, offer a special button instead of the illumination button?(which you would hold pressed and dial in the setting-parameters of that point you chose on the function wheel???)
BTW, is any forum addict awake enough to get along with my point ...? (at least in mid-europe its almost 11pm by now) *yawn*

I cant help it, that "setting-wheel" IMHO... it literally is the 5th wheel - in the meaning of that old idiom everybody will know and i nice on-top-oled or e-ink display would be more useful and would let me save battery life, because then i could see everything on a screen that consumes nearly no current and wouldnt even think about switching on the main-LCD what only leads to chimping sessions.

again : i am not promoting this because i want to say the K-1 is a bad camera, i only post this because i know its successor could be more reasonable.

Kunzite... At least you admit that something doesnt fit right. That gives me hope. Thank you.(i really mean it)
05-23-2017, 01:45 PM   #619
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@cali92rs:
I've made quite a strong point in the previous posts, if you care to read. Hard controls are ideal for many applications.


You just said it in that statement..."many applications"
Not "all" applications.

In fact most of the photos I see on this website i.e. taken with focal lengths less than 100mm (smaller lenses) of things that are not moving or not moving faster than a minimal jog, probably do not benefit at all for having a DSLR form factor besides user preference, which is subjective (even though you are trying to state opinion as fact).


Last edited by cali92rs; 05-23-2017 at 01:52 PM.
05-23-2017, 02:21 PM - 2 Likes   #620
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
(P.S. And some seek designs even more spartan (and elegant) than the Leica. I know some pinhole camera people that use beautiful teak wood box cameras with no automation, no menus, no batteries, no ISO control, no aperture control, and shutter time determined by manually flipping a flag to expose or cover the pinhole. Their polished wood and brass cameras make the Leica look like an ugly stone-cold lump of industrial metal.)
The fellow who introduced me to pinhole photography makes gorgeous ceramic cameras with a simple flip up or friction held shutter - they are art creating art.

My own build, shown below on the left with the output on the right, is more spartan but also more drop-proof - any dents add to the character of a warped film 'plane'. No shutter button, just a piece of sheet metal (with foam weather sealing) held on with a user-replaceable rubber band. It only has bulb mode, which is timed via "one alligator...two alligator..." and is also compatible with the imperial "mississippi" time units. The sensor is a massive 5x7"- image quality is paramount (depending on your monitor, the sample below may literally be a 1:1 reproduction off the 'sensor'). The sleek interface is not in-your-face and should appeal to the back-to-basics photographer who believes in a "f/300-something and be there for a few minutes" style of photography. It's not completely no-frills though, it does have a fancy tripod mount (a block of wood epoxied to the back to be held in a super clamp).

If only I were in charge of designing modern cameras.



Slightly more seriously, having no buttons, or dials, limited controls, etc. is a pretty relaxing way to go now and then.
05-23-2017, 02:30 PM   #621
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@camyum:
A bit of redundancy might be fine - I'd actually judge on a case by case basis, rather than making sweeping (and often incorrect!) statements.
So, 2 methods of setting ISO through dials&buttons are IMO better than 1; as both e-dials are assigned in M.
The illumination button is IMO much better as a dedicated button, as you need to use it in pitch dark.

Any interface is perfectible, and then there's a subjectivity factor. The Smart Function in its first iteration is by no means perfect... the KP's custom positions is an improvement already. But I used it in several occasions; the basic idea is sound.

@cali92rs:
Of course I'm not saying "all" applications. But a camera's essential controls are one application, a car HVAC interface is another... and I could make it a very long list. Even a smartphone's on screen keyboard is worse than a miniature keyboard - I used a smartphone with a miniature QWERTY keyboard, typing is much faster and less error prone.
What you're trying to describe is a scenario in which a non-ideal interface can still work. That doesn't make it ideal.
I'm only presenting facts as facts.
05-23-2017, 03:07 PM - 1 Like   #622
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
The fellow who introduced me to pinhole photography makes gorgeous ceramic cameras with a simple flip up or friction held shutter - they are art creating art.

My own build, shown below on the left with the output on the right, is more spartan but also more drop-proof - any dents add to the character of a warped film 'plane'. No shutter button, just a piece of sheet metal (with foam weather sealing) held on with a user-replaceable rubber band. It only has bulb mode, which is timed via "one alligator...two alligator..." and is also compatible with the imperial "mississippi" time units. The sensor is a massive 5x7"- image quality is paramount (depending on your monitor, the sample below may literally be a 1:1 reproduction off the 'sensor'). The sleek interface is not in-your-face and should appeal to the back-to-basics photographer who believes in a "f/300-something and be there for a few minutes" style of photography. It's not completely no-frills though, it does have a fancy tripod mount (a block of wood epoxied to the back to be held in a super clamp).

If only I were in charge of designing modern cameras.



Slightly more seriously, having no buttons, or dials, limited controls, etc. is a pretty relaxing way to go now and then.
I love it! But there's some people on another thread that will insist you'll need an EVF for this thing and if it can't do tracking focus of drunk chimpanzees on mountain bikes, then there's no point to it at all. Oh, and how's the video on that camera,

Your delightful camera is proof that Leica's are too complicated and retro ain't retro enough for some.

And the story that prompted this thread is proof that the Pentax K-1 is attractive to some (perhaps even some who are doing the unthinkable and giving up on EVFs).
05-23-2017, 03:21 PM - 3 Likes   #623
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Oh, and how's the video on that camera,
Video is rudimentary, but acceptable for my needs. Close to home (and my closet/darkroom), I can film at approximately 10 fph (frames per hour) and staple them together into a flip book. There's no audio recorded at the time of capture, but I guarantee old timey piano music will play in your head as you flip through.



05-23-2017, 03:22 PM   #624
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you are right... looking at the KP, it seems they already recognized...
The FUNCTION DIAL IS GOOD ALREADY in itself and is receiving improvemnts, nonetheless:
I still feel there is room for more improvement going into the direction "REDUCTION"
- i would really like to cite Saint Exupery here, but i am just to f.. tired.

nonetheless i stay with my words: "SETTING WHEEL" = SUPERABUNDANT;


ONE
special Button (blue button, yellow button, pinstriped button, whatever-you-may-call-it-button)
in conjunction with rear e-dial instead of:
add. wheel+GPS-button+Illum.-button+card-slot-switch-button(why is that one actually there? lol) -> keeps functionality, saves buttons, saves intrusion points and adds up to
= COOL

no way around dis.

BTW: A "lock-button" if existant(like on the K-1) should lock the pictures, the photographer took and not accidently lock the settings.
(traditionally, the "AE-L button" is used for such "settings-lock functions"... at least that was a very well known and accepted convention not so long ago)
05-23-2017, 04:31 PM   #625
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
My own build, shown below on the left with the output on the right, is more spartan but also more drop-proof - any dents add to the character of a warped film 'plane'. No shutter button, just a piece of sheet metal (with foam weather sealing) held on with a user-replaceable rubber band. It only has bulb mode, which is timed via "one alligator...two alligator..." and is also compatible with the imperial "mississippi" time units. The sensor is a massive 5x7"- image quality is paramount (depending on your monitor, the sample below may literally be a 1:1 reproduction off the 'sensor'). The sleek interface is not in-your-face and should appeal to the back-to-basics photographer who believes in a "f/300-something and be there for a few minutes" style of photography. It's not completely no-frills though, it does have a fancy tripod mount (a block of wood epoxied to the back to be held in a super clamp).
I love it Brian! Well done. Perhaps you can do a thread on how all this works?
05-23-2017, 04:43 PM   #626
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Not good enough; do you really need a camera?
All you need is a smart image search engine, as every picture you'd want to take is already somewhere, on some site

I like it.

I do like the idea of a camera that just pulls images off of Google's image search.

It would be like a box of chocolates... don't know what you're going to get until you try one. Try, In this case, meaning download the images to the PC.

100 random google images.. like a grab bag. Could get scary though.. would need to invoke some kind of filtering..
05-23-2017, 04:52 PM   #627
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As far as knobs and dials are concerned, I think it germane to mention that I went from a Minolta Dynax 3xi - an autofocus, auto-winding, integral-flash film SLR with P, A, S and M modes, to what should have been a P3. The difference? The Dynax worked its aperture and shutter speed with separate two-way rocker switches, the P3 with the traditional shutter speed dial and aperture ring.

It is ironic perhaps that the P3 turned out to be faulty and the only thing they were able to exchange it for at the same price was a P50T - with buttons for the shutter speed - but still the more old fashioned interface (manual winding, manual focus, manual aperture whenever I wanted it) won the day and I eventually sold the Dynax for a pittance. Bizarre, when it had served me nothing but well and literally gone round the world with me without a hitch, but there you go.

We have, at least, come back to control wheels. They are knobs of a sort, mostly buried and with values advertised only in the viewfinder, but still knobs.
05-23-2017, 05:03 PM   #628
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
The fellow who introduced me to pinhole photography makes gorgeous ceramic cameras with a simple flip up or friction held shutter - they are art creating art.

My own build ...
... is fantastic. Love all this McGyver stuff.
05-23-2017, 07:08 PM   #629
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
You just said it in that statement..."many applications"
Not "all" applications.

In fact most of the photos I see on this website i.e. taken with focal lengths less than 100mm (smaller lenses) of things that are not moving or not moving faster than a minimal jog, probably do not benefit at all for having a DSLR form factor besides user preference, which is subjective (even though you are trying to state opinion as fact).
Something like that.

Where classic, robust DSLR designs excels is in use with telephoto lenses, and with battery grips, and in bad weather especially when knobs are desired.

Rangefinders were very much cut off at around 90mm, one could hardly focus through an RF at 90mm, and that was it. So there is inherent reason why flatter, minimalistic approach of the Leica M works because it really fits the limits of the RF photography. Most consumer cameras are in the same playground of focal lengths. However, DSLR design in the K-1 style feels a bit of an overkill for lenses such as DA21, FA43 and DA40 and it is an overkill. First of all, it is too heavy for such purpose. Once a big zoom lens is on it, then the K-1 makes perfect sense.

On the other hand, KP is made to be amalgam sort of camera, that fits various needs. By itself, and without grips, it can be used with smaller primes and eventually smaller zooms, like 12-24. I tried it with 12-24 and is okay. But 55-300? Or 60-250? Forget it; it doesn't work — grips are necessary.

When I tried it with 12-24, and it can be held in one hand, I instinctively touched the screen to focus on a certain spot — but of course, Pentax can't do that. Despite that camera's tilting screen and smaller footprint almost beg for a touchscreen to focus and take a shot. KP was designed around the idea of support of the smaller lenses, but development did not go far enough to include logical touchscreen.

On the other hand, Leica put an excellent touchscreen, but cannot tilt it. (It offers a tilting external EVF, though, as a separate piece of equipment).

---------- Post added 05-24-2017 at 12:19 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Y
It wasn't a very good instructor, if he told you to never change gears
.
Auto-transmission. Some folks have issues with their arms/shoulders, and manual gear shift acrobatics hurts.

That is also why smartphones are so popular — they can be used by elderly people, very young kids, people with illnesses and disabilities. One of major selling points of the iPhone 4 was forward facing camera enabling video calls — people with speech impediments could finally make telephone calls and communicate via signs.

To use a DSLR with a standard zoom, one has to be fit, and complete person in terms of number of fingers and physical abilities.
To use a rangefinder camera, not so much.

Touchscreen can be operated with one finger, but to turn a knob, two are required.

Last edited by Uluru; 05-23-2017 at 07:23 PM.
05-24-2017, 03:01 AM - 1 Like   #630
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People buy smart phones because they want to run apps and make phone calls and send text messages. Sure, they use the camera as well, but that certainly isn't their primary reason for getting them. Take the phone features off of a smart phone and see how well they sell. As far as I know, you can still get an i pod which has a decent camera and can run apps, but I warrant they sell a tiny number of them compared with the i phones -- probably only to kids whose parents don't really want them to have an actual phone yet. And no, smart phones aren't easier to use with regard to ergonomics. They actually are very uncomfortable to use and the results are poor in many situations. I can't imagine using a smart phone to take photos for an hour or two precisely because the interface isn't good.

I'm sure Pentax will come out with a touch screen at some point, but I don't know that that sort of feature would sell a whole lot more cameras.
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