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05-25-2017, 05:34 PM   #661
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
LOL, I know it's the badge that gives them the excuse, but if you took that off and put anything else on (or nothing at all), could you command the prices they do based only on performance?
Shhhh ... you're giving away state secrets!

Have a look at what you pay for a Leica D-Lux ... it's actually a Panasonic with the badge replaced! About a 100 percent markup.


Last edited by clackers; 05-25-2017 at 05:45 PM.
05-25-2017, 11:32 PM - 2 Likes   #662
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
And still I can not see exactly, why having better AF should end in having a bad Image Quality.
Yes, Pentax have great IQ - it's something that photographers should care about more than anything else - a camera is a tool to produce a product - but sharpness is part of IQ, and in those circumstances where sharpness relies on AF, that is a significant factor. Even if you don't need super-fast AF 95% of the time, it's good to now that it's there, under the hood, for when you do. It's one of those unfortunate situations where good enough isn't good enough. What Pentax have failed to do is prove that they can do it - if Nikon or Canon produced the K-1, a few people might grumble about the AF not being up to the standard of the 1DX or D5, but they'd see that as a marketing decision to keep the price down, not a lack of basic competence, because the 1DX and the D5 exist.
05-26-2017, 03:04 AM - 1 Like   #663
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Yes, Pentax have great IQ - it's something that photographers should care about more than anything else - a camera is a tool to produce a product - but sharpness is part of IQ, and in those circumstances where sharpness relies on AF, that is a significant factor. Even if you don't need super-fast AF 95% of the time, it's good to now that it's there, under the hood, for when you do. It's one of those unfortunate situations where good enough isn't good enough. What Pentax have failed to do is prove that they can do it - if Nikon or Canon produced the K-1, a few people might grumble about the AF not being up to the standard of the 1DX or D5, but they'd see that as a marketing decision to keep the price down, not a lack of basic competence, because the 1DX and the D5 exist.
I think the biggest thing is that Pentax had a journey through the wilderness under Hoya where funds for R and D were kept at a bare minimum. This put them five or six years behind companies like Nikon and Canon with regard to auto focus speed. Until the K3 was released, Pentax had the same basic SAFOX auto focus points that were there since the *ist D days. I'm sure the algorithms changed some, but the number of points was exactly the same.

If Ricoh was willing to pull a Sony and just throw money at digital camera operations, they could catch up, but at this point, it feels like they are running five years behind their competitors -- not losing ground at this point, but not catching up either.

There are two things we take solace in. First of all, there are definite improvements in the K3, K3 II and K-1 cameras and second, Pentax cameras have gotten to the place where they are "usable" in most situations, even if they aren't ideal for every one. Pentaxians have trained themselves to work with Pentax cameras. As long as we continue to see improvement over time, we'll be fine. You don't really need D500 performance. Maybe D750 performance is good enough for all normal purposes.
05-26-2017, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #664
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For a while, I guess the best focusing in low light DSLR was a Pentax.

05-26-2017, 05:39 AM - 1 Like   #665
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Shhhh ... you're giving away state secrets!

Have a look at what you pay for a Leica D-Lux ... it's actually a Panasonic with the badge replaced! About a 100 percent markup.
To be fair, it's not JUST the badge. It's also the overall Teutonic design aesthetic. Square buttons!
05-26-2017, 06:32 AM   #666
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
For a while, I guess the best focusing in low light DSLR was a Pentax.
Sure. And when people argue about auto focus, they are invariably arguing about AF-C which I seldom use. With regard to AF-S these cameras are pretty close.
05-26-2017, 07:27 AM - 2 Likes   #667
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
To be fair, it's not JUST the badge. It's also the overall Teutonic design aesthetic. Square buttons!
(Laughs).

After 2000 LX-100s get made at the Panasonic factory, the shift supervisor points to fifteen and says, "Put the square buttons on 'em, boys, they're Leicas."
05-26-2017, 04:32 PM   #668
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Shhhh ... you're giving away state secrets!

Have a look at what you pay for a Leica D-Lux ... it's actually a Panasonic with the badge replaced! About a 100 percent markup.
Extra markup is not that huge when cameras are launched, more like 25-30%, and Leica's version always keeps the value better, which is visible later, when Panasonic needs to drop the price — their then new camera is cheaper than used Leica's version at that time. There is value in the brand name obviously.

But it is not skin deep. The body is different slightly, and optics is deigned by Leica and Panasonic, each company then treats the curves and colours from the sensor to their ideas of an image. O top of that, Leica offers better warranty too.

---------- Post added 05-27-2017 at 09:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
That whole touchscreen idea is the last thing I would want for the next or any PENTAX camera in the semi-near future...

Better autofocus
is defenitely first on the list.

Also a bigger buffer, faster framerate or even 4K vids would attract more people than a Touchscreen.
(or at least make less people leave the PENTAX system)
Touchscreens are useful in swivel screens, and if it can be tuned off quickly, or automatically like turning off the LCD and touchscreen capability when the sensor picks up user is about to use the OVF.

---------- Post added 05-27-2017 at 09:47 AM ----------


[/QUOTE]

QuoteQuote:
Originally posted by pathdoc:
not at the prices they demand new, they aren't. Sometimes i think i'd love to have one to shoot with for a day, but i have yet to understand why i should allow my wallet to be savaged for what can amount to the cost of a k-1 and any two fast zooms. Give me a scene, an iso, a shutter speed, a focal length, an aperture and an equivalent-sized sensor and tell me exactly what it is about leica which makes the price worth it.
Leica tries its best to keep up the value of its work, IP and products. Pentax always, always was lowering the value of their products, because that was the strategy taken from Asahi — Asahi lived well from the IP and patents and cared little about end user products, in which they invested bare minimum, and cared little whether they keep the value or not. Pentax was a hobby business for Asahi and in the film era, for a major optical company, it was a very cheap business to run AND advertise their main product — patents. Similarly, Pentax is a hobby business for Ricoh, run on shoestring budget.

But Leica was its own business, and always very serious about its prospects, its quality, invention and prices. They commanded seriousness. Don't blame them. Leica's story and Pentax story are two totally different stories, that meet here and there concerning the optics. But Ricoh will never invest in anything like the Leica SL or Leica T, because to Ricoh it is all a hobby business.

Where we may, but not assuredly, see some interesting new things borrowing from other technologies, is the GR line. Or the new crop DSLR, because they did mention EVF overlay in the last interview in Yokohama. Those small incremental changes are interesting because they make familiar objects more interesting.

So they are good, but users have to wait much longer than usual. I mean, after two releases of the APS-C GR, Ricoh issued a survey asking people what would they like in the next GR. They ask that only now, 4 years later? Or after 5 years of ownership of Pentax, they asked what kind of lenses users would like? Etc.


Last edited by Uluru; 05-26-2017 at 05:01 PM.
05-27-2017, 04:06 AM   #669
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote

Leica tries its best to keep up the value of its work, IP and products. Pentax always, always was lowering the value of their products, because that was the strategy taken from Asahi — Asahi lived well from the IP and patents and cared little about end user products, in which they invested bare minimum, and cared little whether they keep the value or not. Pentax was a hobby business for Asahi and in the film era, for a major optical company, it was a very cheap business to run AND advertise their main product — patents. Similarly, Pentax is a hobby business for Ricoh, run on shoestring budget.

But Leica was its own business, and always very serious about its prospects, its quality, invention and prices. They commanded seriousness. Don't blame them. Leica's story and Pentax story are two totally different stories, that meet here and there concerning the optics. But Ricoh will never invest in anything like the Leica SL or Leica T, because to Ricoh it is all a hobby business.

Where we may, but not assuredly, see some interesting new things borrowing from other technologies, is the GR line. Or the new crop DSLR, because they did mention EVF overlay in the last interview in Yokohama. Those small incremental changes are interesting because they make familiar objects more interesting.

So they are good, but users have to wait much longer than usual. I mean, after two releases of the APS-C GR, Ricoh issued a survey asking people what would they like in the next GR. They ask that only now, 4 years later? Or after 5 years of ownership of Pentax, they asked what kind of lenses users would like? Etc.
Very interesting take, thank you for this. It looks as if 2017-2018 could shape up to be a memorable period. We may see a growing and refined family of Sony A9 items, Canon making a significant move to counter Sony, Nikon finally coming out of hiding with new ideas of their own, and outfits like Fuji and Hasselblad refining their own modern new items on medium format. None of this is directly relevant for Pentax, though. They are too small to create a market for anything on their own and they are dependent on suppliers for what they can create themselves (Sony for sensors, SocioNext or whoever for processing power, etc.). What Pentax may need is for the market to settle in whatever new configuration it may have so that they can enter it with their offering of IQ, features and value vs top-end power. A smaller player like Pentax depends on others to create the market first and prime it with advertising, etc. Indirectly, any large changes are very relevant for Pentax, of course. They will influence what Pentax thinks it can do profitably with medium format and on their full-frame DSLR line, particularly with regard to the new lens programme. A very difficult time for them, I feel.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-27-2017 at 07:15 AM.
05-27-2017, 03:31 PM   #670
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Interesting times, becuase Canon will soon go to war with Sony for the mirrorless full-frame market. Any call made by either Pentax or Nikon to stay out of that market has now been confirmed as correct - let Canon and Sony slug it out, and see what the FF mirrorless ecosystem is like when the war is over.
05-28-2017, 12:36 AM   #671
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Buy or not buy , that is the question. What is the horse that will win the commercial race? Canon, Nikon, Sony, and will Pentax not arrive at the finish line. Pentax forum should open a poll and sell 10 euros tickets to participate.
05-28-2017, 02:54 PM - 2 Likes   #672
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From what I can see, there are 3 areas that Pentax lags behind in. These have not mattered so much in the past, because Pentax was clearly ahead on other aspects, such as image quality. Now as all cameras improve, and the CMOS sensor tech is quite mature, these deficiencies are really starting to hurt.

These are, in no particular order:
Tracking / Predictive Autofocus Tracking, in stills and in video mode. Continuous Eye AF is especially useful for portraiture, as well as the obvious sports benefits to general AF tracking improvements, plus wider across the field of view.
Video Mode capabilities: Focus Peaking, High Bit Rate, clean HDMI out, Mechanical Stabilisation etc.
Touch Screen Integration: Selecting AF Focus Points, image review, menu diving etc. All with the ability to turn off and retain mechanical buttons/switches as well.


Improvements to these areas will need to be made, in order to continue to be competitive.
The 'gimmicky' developments, such as LED lights in the grip or simulated AA filter shake etc, can only go so far before the review tests these areas above.
05-28-2017, 08:53 PM - 1 Like   #673
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
From what I can see, there are 3 areas that Pentax lags behind in. These have not mattered so much in the past, because Pentax was clearly ahead on other aspects, such as image quality. Now as all cameras improve, and the CMOS sensor tech is quite mature, these deficiencies are really starting to hurt..
I'm not sure you read the OP, Rich.

Let me ask you.

If the report that half of all K-1s sold are to converts from other brands is to be believed (not by me, I must add), how do you explain that in the light of your three points?
05-28-2017, 10:18 PM   #674
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Assume they're landscape photogs?
That subset of photographers who don't require tracking of static subjects, video or a touchscreen to select an AF point.
05-28-2017, 10:32 PM   #675
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
Assume they're landscape photogs?
That subset of photographers who don't require tracking of static subjects, video or a touchscreen to select an AF point.
Maybe.

Whatever their reasons, they rejected other brands, and came here, in the current market.
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