[Uluru]

Have a look at prices here, Bxf ... it's closer to 100 percent than what you say:

Now, personally, I'd love a Leica M and a couple of select lenses ... but let's not pretend the markup isn't enormous!
Pricey niche is a perfectly valid strategy that's worked for them recently, but not for Hasselblad, let's hope it does for Pentax.

It is what I stated before: LX100 is now 2.5 years old. By Panasonic's standards, it is an old camera and the difference in price between LX100 and D-Lux 109 is now significant. Because Leica's version holds its value. But during the launch it was about 20% difference.

Leica's markup on M series is not huge, just decent. They still use premium materials, for their M lenses they use premium glass which is really, really expensive (different grade of glass than used for prosumer lenses, usually several times more expensive). They also use hand assembly of lenses, rangefinders are all manually calibrated and inspected, and all stages of production are inspected. It involves lots of precise, manual work because Leica wants that a camera feels exceptionally well made, and as made by a man, not by a machine. That detail is significant, because it inspires quality, and reliability.

It is a different feel altogether from the mass produced cameras. Go to the shop, and try Leica's V-Lux, a rebadge of a Panasonic's superzoom, and then try M or SL, or TL. I mean, they are totally different leagues, not comparable, and the price is certainly justified. Leica SL and M feel better crafted than the K-1, despite fact that the K-1 is solid, robust, top of the shelf advanced prosumer Pentax camera.

Perhaps a comparison with 645Z is more apt. Pentax 645Z is by far best crafted and best made Pentax camera, better than the K-1. I suggest you go and try it, and you will understand why it is fair that Pentax asks that much money for the 645Z. And it is not only because of the large sensor in it — not at all. Sensor is only incidental cost. Everything else matters, including that 645Z, like SL or M, is calibrated and made to exactness to deliver that extra 15% advantage in performance in all circumstances that makes all the difference.

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Last edited by Uluru; 06-01-2017 at 05:07 PM.

[Ian Stuart Forsyth]

Perhaps a comparison with 645Z is more apt. Pentax 645Z is by far best crafted and best made Pentax camera, better than the K-1.

If you look at the 645 line of digit cameras they are the only line of cameras that pentax makes that use a fully metal chassis, making it a very sturdy platform.

[camyum]

I dont want to be nitpicky, but sometimes i just cant take all those "alternative facts"... so WRONG!
sensors dont "do 4k"...? what is that?
Sensors dont do 4K, they are just sensors...

If you dont know what you are talking about exactly, you should just stop talking about it.
(you dont need to know, but pretending you know and feeding false info to others is a very bad thing)
actually the sensor itself WOULD be capable of doing 6k video. PERIOD

The problem is the readout, and since ricoh feeds its new ff-cameras 5 year old microelectronics, things are pretty lame in pentaxland compared to other systems.

They even hold back features that from a technical point of view are totally possible...

For instance:
It would be totally possible to shoot a burst of 4 pix with electronical shutter on a PENTAX K-70.
If you ask yourself "how does he want to know that" a short explanation will make you go AAAAAHAAA!

>>>
to keep things short and dont get to technicky.... Pixelshift mode which is available on the K-70 is doing nothing more than:
open the mechanical shutter and shoot a burst of 4 pictures with the K-70 electronical shutter capabilities close the shutter and combining the 4 pix to one.

But that feature is just locked because an option on K-70 even for single frame electronical shutter is not available.

So if you could agree with that, I think it would be good for all PENTAX-users if everybody who can spare the time and cares about such locked features, contacts Ricoh-imaging support and complains about that mockery.

It would be for Ricoh-Imagings best looking at the market share of the PENTAX brand, a camera like the K-70 which is a direct competitor to Nikons D72000, should put a bit more on the table, given the fact that it only offers 1/6000s mechanical shutter speed compared to the 1/8000 on the D7200...
to pussyfoot around, for sure isnt the way to win customers.

[photoptimist]

I dont want to be nitpicky, but sometimes i just cant take all those "alternative facts"... so WRONG!
sensors dont "do 4k"...? what is that?
Sensors dont do 4K, they are just sensors...

If you dont know what you are talking about exactly, you should just stop talking about it.
(you dont need to know, but pretending you know and feeding false info to others is a very bad thing)
actually the sensor itself WOULD be capable of doing 6k video. PERIOD

The problem is the readout, and since ricoh feeds its new ff-cameras 5 year old microelectronics, things are pretty lame in pentaxland compared to other systems.

They even hold back features that from a technical point of view are totally possible...

For instance:
It would be totally possible to shoot a burst of 4 pix with electronical shutter on a PENTAX K-70.
If you ask yourself "how does he want to know that" a short explanation will make you go AAAAAHAAA!

>>>
to keep things short and dont get to technicky.... Pixelshift mode which is available on the K-70 is doing nothing more than:
open the mechanical shutter and shoot a burst of 4 pictures with the K-70 electronical shutter capabilities close the shutter and combining the 4 pix to one.

But that feature is just locked because an option on K-70 even for single frame electronical shutter is not available.

So if you could agree with that, I think it would be good for all PENTAX-users if everybody who can spare the time and cares about such locked features, contacts Ricoh-imaging support and complains about that mockery.

It would be for Ricoh-Imagings best looking at the market share of the PENTAX brand, a camera like the K-70 which is a direct competitor to Nikons D72000, should put a bit more on the table, given the fact that it only offers 1/6000s mechanical shutter speed compared to the 1/8000 on the D7200...
to pussyfoot around, for sure isnt the way to win customers.

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong about sensors and 4k.

The maximum possible read-out speeds are limited by the sensor (and are often further slowed to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio.)

The maximum pixel read-out-rate is one of the key technical specs of the sensor.

None of the cameras based on Sony's 36 MPIx FF sensors (Pentax K-1, Nikon D800, Nikon D810, or Sony A7R) can do 4k video and it has nothing to do with the downstream digital electronics.

As for electronic shutters, those don't help the read-out speed limits of the sensor. In fact, electronic shutters actually add several types of image-degrading effects if the scene is not perfectly still which is probably why the K-70 only uses the electronic shutter for pixelshift.

[mee]

That's funny. The camera would just direct you to a position where it could take the perfect picture, and then we could all be great photographers, at the expense of some leg work.
We could buy 1 camera and never need another with better DR, AF, etc.

Reminds me of the bomb that becomes self aware in Darkstar.

I wasn't aware of that movie.. but I just saw the clip on youtube of the guys talking to the bomb.

The camera needs to have built in post processing software to tell you what is a good look for the image it tells you is a good image to take.

[Reed]

That's a great movie I remember watching it years ago

-Bomb Twenty, ready to receive new orders?
-I think you are false data, then I shall ignore you.

[JamesDCrockett]

I just bought a K-1 and chose it over the Sony A7R, A7II, Nikon D750, and Canon 6D. Video was never a consideration as I have never shot video. Not even with a old Pany I had over five years ago.

If video was my primary concern, the Sony A7II would have won out. Better pictures vs better video, for my taste pictures win out every time. I know some want video, but it seems Pentax wants to be known for its picture quality. It is where they started with the best made 35mm film cameras in the world, and to me it seems that is their direction now with this full frame release.

[camyum]

The maximum possible read-out speeds are limited by the sensor (and are often further slowed to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio.)

that may be only partly true but nowhere near 100%
I dont know where all your "knowledge" comes from but according to what i know,
a CMOS sensor has the advantage that you can read out single pixels also... and using AOIs you should be able to step up readout.
What indeed could be a problem, is having A/D off-sensor or A/D on-sensor.
And AFAIBTK, with a CMOS you can choose to do A/D on chip or off chip. so aint no sensor design problem either.
But prove that wrong with scientific papers and you have won your game.
(to me it still stays a big failure to offer old for new)

For further notice, a very pixel-dense sensor demands(despite fast memory and a high quality "wiring") a very eloborated design of the readout electronics and the cooling may be a problem.

But again all that are not my problems.

And should you win your game, blame on me, but i still dont get the point of offering 4K in an action cam for 200 bucks but not in a 2.000bucks and up -DSLR body.
(Keep in mind not many demanded 36MP nor did I ever think that is an intelligent move, considering the fact that pix from lower res FF-Sensor look more crisp and that 36MP res is very close to the 645Z resolution)

[redpit]

I read things that only reflect some people's personal preferences. It would be nice if you used the expression "in my opinion" more often and stop generalize based on perceptions and personal beliefs that are presented as facts.

So to sum up, I'm glad that Pentax developed the K-1 the way it did! In fact I feel grateful and I have thanked the development team in that other relevant thread.

[photoptimist]

that may be only partly true but nowhere near 100%
I dont know where all your "knowledge" comes from but according to what i know,
a CMOS sensor has the advantage that you can read out single pixels also... and using AOIs you should be able to step up readout.
What indeed could be a problem, is having A/D off-sensor or A/D on-sensor.
And AFAIBTK, with a CMOS you can choose to do A/D on chip or off chip. so aint no sensor design problem either.
But prove that wrong with scientific papers and you have won your game.
(to me it still stays a big failure to offer old for new)

For further notice, a very pixel-dense sensor demands(despite fast memory and a high quality "wiring") a very eloborated design of the readout electronics and the cooling may be a problem.

But again all that are not my problems.

And should you win your game, blame on me, but i still dont get the point of offering 4K in an action cam for 200 bucks but not in a 2.000bucks and up -DSLR body.
(Keep in mind not many demanded 36MP nor did I ever think that is an intelligent move, considering the fact that pix from lower res FF-Sensor look more crisp and that 36MP res is very close to the 645Z resolution)

That theoretical advantage of reading single pixels from a CMOS sensor does not help in this case. AIOs may permit a faster frame rate with fewer pixels read, but the system is still limited by the sensor's maximum pixel clock (downrated if the AOI circuits have to clear entire rows/columns or can only use a subset of whatever ADCs are in the system.)

4k @ 30 fps requires reading 250 MPix/second at a minimum but that Sony 36 MPix sensor can only put out about 145 to 180 MPix/sec. AOI can't fix that limitation.

As for "scientific papers" to prove what I'm saying I can only point to the failure of BOTH Sony and Nikon to include 4k video in their $2,300 - $3,000 cameras for which they were criticized.

Finally, as for the selection of a 36 MPix resolution, it's actually a near-optimal resolution for a full frame stills camera. The pixels have a sweet-spot size of being big enough to have a high IQ and yet small enough to make the most of the natural sharpness of high-quality lenses.

[clackers]

(Keep in mind not many demanded 36MP nor did I ever think that is an intelligent move, considering the fact that pix from lower res FF-Sensor look more crisp

What bizarre opinions you have, Camyum ... IMHO, of course!

[Uluru]

If you look at the 645 line of digit cameras they are the only line of cameras that pentax makes that use a fully metal chassis, making it a very sturdy platform.

They are unbelievable. 645 camera deliver simply mind blowing experience. Only camera that compares to it is Leica M. I haven't tried new M10 yet, but folks already swear it is the best M ever, especially considering enlarged rangefinder in the M10; I wish to see how well it compares with the 645 viewfinder because that folks, is what really matters and what hooks you to the photography — when you experience a second life when looking through a gorgeous VF.

[bossa]

I've just spent 6 months selling off my deceased mother's estate (and moving house) so I've missed an awful lot of everything. And I'm about to sell off a lot of my Nikon cameras and lenses (I still cling to my K-5 and FA lenses though). I'd almost kill for a K-1, but I feel I must have a 645 if I am to go further with my craft - or at least entertain myself some more.

All of the lenses I thought I needed before I now realise that I don't.
K-5 & DFA 31mm

[redpit]

What bizarre opinions you have, Camyum ... IMHO, of course!

Exactly that makes us two We are not the "many" however with the opposite opinion...

[Kunzite]

I think going with the 36MP sensor was a brilliant move:
- it's an excellent sensor; inexpensive but with top notch image quality. Better than that of the 24MP sensors, I'd say.
- clear differentiation from the competitors' affordable FF cameras. This is most important, as the K-1 gets compared to the likes of D810 and 5D Mk IV instead of the cheaper 6D and D610. Note that the later are cheaper only because they're older... they were launched at higher prices than the K-1!
- clear differentiation from the 24MP APS-C cameras
- higher pixel density means higher quality crops. As many of us have APS-C lenses, this is not insignificant.

I would welcome a further increase in resolution in the next model. A pixel density similar to that of the 24MP APS-C sensors, perhaps.