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04-20-2017, 01:04 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
People are endlessly looking at what Ricoh/Pentax doesn't do, or doesn't do well, or doesn't do well enough (for some arbitrary standards). Very few seems to be interested in what they're doing.
The quote above - why not adding space exploration if we're at it? They surely can do it, it's not rocket science... oh, wait...
Ricoh is involved - even through their Pentax brand - in areas like factory automation and non-consumer photography/imaging. Quite lucrative areas.
Of course they are, and I wasn't being wholly serious.

04-20-2017, 02:35 AM   #62
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I have to say that the video from Pentax SLRs isn't garbage, it just could be better. And if you want 4K, it isn't available.

Currently, I am not sure if any of the sensors they are using are capable of 4K video. Maybe the one in the K70? But if the sensor is capable, it won't detract from the still photography experience if Pentax puts a little R and D into making their video better (whatever that means) -- the cost is actually minimal -- we're talking software, not hardware.

There are all sorts of features on my SLRs that I don't use often, like astro tracer and GPS, but it doesn't bother me that they are there. And maybe someday I'll experiment with them. And that's why Pentax should improve all the features, not just the ones I personally use.
04-20-2017, 03:14 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
Sony just overtook Nikon as #2 in the camera market by delivering massively on nearly every aspect of the camera excluding an OVF.
They're beating everybody on just about everything (A9) in a very short time span.
Sony is doing very well, but I doubt they are making a profit from the A7 line, at least not yet. Their R&D budget would have been very large which very few competitors likely to match, would be interesting to see how Canon will respond to the A9. Sony is in it for the long run and I think they want to grow the FF market segment overall, not just taking market share from competitors. A growing FF market will help Pentax as well. So I agree with you Ricoh should invest more in FF, at the very least bring forward the FF lens road-map.
04-20-2017, 03:20 AM - 1 Like   #64
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Personally, I think if the reported information is true, it speaks volumes for the quality of the K-1 that it is reaching out to a new audience.

04-20-2017, 04:10 AM   #65
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My point - in a thread dedicated to K-1 attracting users from other brands - is to ask how many potential users Pentax loses to other brands because video and file transfer aren't better.
04-20-2017, 04:49 AM - 1 Like   #66
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How many of the actual new-to-Pentax K-1 purchasers would have invested in that camera if the price point had been significantly higher? if the more advanced sensor and processor, capable of 4k video, had been included in the K-1, what would it's price have been, and how many of the upgrading Pentax users would have bought it? Now, if more work on the AF system had been done to satisfy action photographers, what would that have added to the cost?

We can all make up our answers to suit our arguments, but Ricoh's clear stated intention was to build a 35FF body that existing Pentax shooters could upgrade to. They provided that, at a price that many (I think, a lot) of us here were surprised and pleased by, but would we have bought if it had been $500 or $1,000 more?

Those improvements people have been talking about here will possibly come with a K-1ii (probably called a K-2, or something else, to highlight the changes), but when that will be is anyone's guess. It probably won't be fast enough to satisfy some of us.
04-20-2017, 05:01 AM - 2 Likes   #67
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If they had the great video, then the remaining lenses would be a problem.
Even if they had the video and all the lenses, then the professional support program would be a problem.
If they had video, lenses, and support program, then they would have a problem with the name, because it ain't written Canon there, and people would still buy Canon, just 'to be on the safe side' when bad days come.

Etc. Finding silly excuses and uppity pretence is the prerogative of a spoiled mind which wants to posses everything, but can understand particular value of nothing. A miser always demands one more thing, 'before he parts with money', but which he ain't be spending on you anyway.

It is an age old story. A poor girl marries finally a poor guy, and they live happily ever after, both in good and bad. While some guys would commit but only if the living together will be good. That ain't love.

Last edited by Uluru; 04-20-2017 at 05:27 AM.
04-20-2017, 05:50 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
They're beating everybody on just about everything (A9) in a very short time span.
At an asking price that will deter all but the very affluent or professionals. Should Pentax go bust chasing after the leaders in AF and video or stick to making good cameras?

04-20-2017, 06:52 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
Ricoh isn't winning market share and isn't exponentially increasing profits by not firing on all cylinders and without being competitive.
Sony just overtook Nikon as #2 in the camera market by delivering massively on nearly every aspect of the camera excluding an OVF.
They're beating everybody on just about everything (A9) in a very short time span.
Would Ricoh fly up the market share ladder if they spent on trying to make every aspect of their camera better than the competition?
No one knows, but the proof is in the pudding.
I love Pentax and am a die hard user, promoter and supporter (which is why I'm shutting my mouth after this comment), but I'm not gonna blindly say "stop complaining, good enough is good enough."
It's not. I swear Pentax is a nerd brand which is why I love it, but nerd brands don't win. What headline reads better, "Pentax introduces camera with lightning fast, crazy accurate AF" or, "Pentax introduces camera with Pixelshift, which increases dynamic range and sharpness when used with a tripod with a completely still subject"?
Which reads better, "Pentax introduces camera with gorgeous lossless 4K video", or "Pentax introduces camera with Astrotracer, which when mounted on a tripod uses GPS to move the sensor with the rotation of the earth to prevent star trails"?
I know what works for me and what works for us, but that nerdy stuff doesn't influence the market, the media, not the public. Don't believe me? Just look around.
Spot on. Bang on the money.
04-20-2017, 06:59 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
At an asking price that will deter all but the very affluent or professionals. Should Pentax go bust chasing after the leaders in AF and video or stick to making good cameras?
That price, while high, is significantly less than flagship Nikon and Canon offerings that can't compete with the specs of this camera, all in a smaller body. For what it offers, I think the A9 looks incredibly competitively priced. It is a $4500 camera targeting a space that is usually reserved for a $6000 camera. I paid $3200 for my A7RII and for what it does in terms of imaging, I consider it a much better deal than what I paid for with my 645D (I still like the D, but it wasn't the 'value' that the Sony has been for me). This whole time, I've been hanging on to my Nikon kit because there has been, from time to time, a job where I need the speed and flexibility that a traditional SLR required.

If this A9 performs half as well as it looks to, I will have no problem selling off my Nikons. I'm not about to buy the A9 because I don't need those specs most of the time, but the fact that it will be available as a rental is all I need. Up to this point, I had to hang on to my Nikon because for those few times I needed it, there was nothing else. This Sony looks to change that. For me, I want high IQ in a smaller, more portable package. Mirrorless is that, and I have found EVF - while not problem free - to be a net gain over OVF. Not all agree - but Sony's new EVF on the A9 looks to solve a lot of complaints. They are innovating at a rate no one else is right now, fixing every little hiccup they can as fast as they can instead of making excuses. You've got to respect that.
04-20-2017, 07:14 AM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
Ricoh isn't winning market share and isn't exponentially increasing profits by not firing on all cylinders and without being competitive.
Sony just overtook Nikon as #2 in the camera market by delivering massively on nearly every aspect of the camera excluding an OVF.
They're beating everybody on just about everything (A9) in a very short time span.
Would Ricoh fly up the market share ladder if they spent on trying to make every aspect of their camera better than the competition?
No one knows, but the proof is in the pudding.
I love Pentax and am a die hard user, promoter and supporter (which is why I'm shutting my mouth after this comment), but I'm not gonna blindly say "stop complaining, good enough is good enough."
It's not. I swear Pentax is a nerd brand which is why I love it, but nerd brands don't win. What headline reads better, "Pentax introduces camera with lightning fast, crazy accurate AF" or, "Pentax introduces camera with Pixelshift, which increases dynamic range and sharpness when used with a tripod with a completely still subject"?
Which reads better, "Pentax introduces camera with gorgeous lossless 4K video", or "Pentax introduces camera with Astrotracer, which when mounted on a tripod uses GPS to move the sensor with the rotation of the earth to prevent star trails"?
I know what works for me and what works for us, but that nerdy stuff doesn't influence the market, the media, not the public. Don't believe me? Just look around.
Those are very good points but they make an assumption that "winning" should be the goal.

My personal experience is that mainstream brands -- those that target "winning" -- suck for me. MacDonalds, Microsoft, CocaCola, Budweiser, Kraft Cheese, etc. have all "won" the most marketshare but they've lost me as a customer.

Give me pixelshift & astrotracer any day of the week and twice on Sunday! And let other brands focus on making P-mode video cameras. Sure, if lightning fast, crazy accurate AF were free (as in zero R&D and zero change in cost of goods), then add it. And if 4k video were free, then add it. I'm not bothered by bloat or unused features in the camera. But these features aren't free and I'd rather Pentax prioritize still photography.
04-20-2017, 07:16 AM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by petrakka Quote
That price, while high, is significantly less than flagship Nikon and Canon offerings that can't compete with the specs of this camera, all in a smaller body. For what it offers, I think the A9 looks incredibly competitively priced. It is a $4500 camera targeting a space that is usually reserved for a $6000 camera. I paid $3200 for my A7RII and for what it does in terms of imaging, I consider it a much better deal than what I paid for with my 645D (I still like the D, but it wasn't the 'value' that the Sony has been for me). This whole time, I've been hanging on to my Nikon kit because there has been, from time to time, a job where I need the speed and flexibility that a traditional SLR required.

If this A9 performs half as well as it looks to, I will have no problem selling off my Nikons. I'm not about to buy the A9 because I don't need those specs most of the time, but the fact that it will be available as a rental is all I need. Up to this point, I had to hang on to my Nikon because for those few times I needed it, there was nothing else. This Sony looks to change that. For me, I want high IQ in a smaller, more portable package. Mirrorless is that, and I have found EVF - while not problem free - to be a net gain over OVF. Not all agree - but Sony's new EVF on the A9 looks to solve a lot of complaints. They are innovating at a rate no one else is right now, fixing every little hiccup they can as fast as they can instead of making excuses. You've got to respect that.
Very good points. The current A9 is being talked of as a sports machine but there are plenty of other uses for a camera like this - weddings, events, performances. The silent shutter will be very useful in some venues. Too early to say how the A9 will pan out, of course, but the promise of what high tech can do with imaging is here now and being delivered.

I guess that pretty soon there will be a family of A9s - landscape with higher resolution, low-light video and so on. Sony aren't going to leave it there. They will spread the development costs around and their G Master lenses appear designed for huge resolving power so more to come.

Still, let's not turn this into a Sony thread. One thing emerging, I think, is that the cost and demands of this technology are beyond all but the largest players. That could put the smaller ones including Pentax in a tricky position. You fall behind and because you can't afford to catch up you fall further behind, etc.

Another thing. All these cameras for 4000, 6000, 8000 bucks and so on. Where does that leave the rest of us, the 90 per cent who aren't going to be forking out the life savings. I suppose internet review and blogging sites with their craze for latest and greatest might not like it but there is an awful lot of action at the ordinary old affordable end we nearly all play in. Makes it kind of comforting to think one can still by a KP for "only" 1000 or so.
04-20-2017, 07:39 AM - 4 Likes   #73
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I wonder how many of those who bought into the K-1 were former Sony shooters, I know of at least 2. Does that mean Sony should go back to OVF and ditch their video?

How do you guys make up your minds as to who should do what the other company does?

From what I can tell Sony didn't rise to number two, Nikon fell to Number 3, great video, fast AF and all.

All these armchair experts who actually don't know anything, have never seen a real account of Pentax's financials, haven't seen any Pentax market research etc. going on and on about what Pentax should do.

Well here's what you guys should do. Go out and buy the camera you want and quit acting like you are so brainy you've figured out what Pentax should do, without even a shred of empirical evidence to make your case.

Sony just moved into #2 in a tiny fragment of the market, high end interchangeable lens systems. That in no way is an indication of what other companies should do. Companies do well by servicing their existing customers and building on that.

The one overriding assumption, that all the EVF and video experts seem to overlook is that all Pentax shooters bought into Pentax, even though they don't have the fastest tracking AF or even average video capability. What separates the whiners from the rest of us, and the thing they really don't get is, those of us who chose Pentax chose a system that matched what we want to do, and are not going to listen to those who didn't. All the whining proves to us is that you bought Pentax, but you wanted more. This is on you, not Pentax.

Pentax doesn't need to change, with the release of the K-1 their user base is pretty much overjoyed. ANd if you aren't you bought the wrong system for you and we are really tired of hearing about it. Its not Pentax's fault, it's yours.

Constantly whining about what pentax doesn't have is pointless, irritating and downright rude. All you are accomplishing is telling us what idiots you are.

The difference between myself and you fools is I bought into Pentax in part because I really didn't care about either video or tracking and I've known that was the case since the 1990s. I like having a system that caters to my usage and I bought into it.

What you Sony fans are doing here telling pentax and folks like myself what we should have in our cameras is rude, disrespectful and only proves you are too stupid or poor to go out and get what you need, and would rather spend time on some internet forum telling a billion dollar corporation how they should run their business.

Ridiculous.

Pentax execs are paid for keeping the ship afloat and doing well. If one of the strategies everyone claims Pentax should be doing should fail it doesn't cost the guys on the forum who proposed them a cent. A bunch of dilettantes telling Pentax how to spend their money, when it can't cost themselves a cent, and most of them could buy what they ask Pentax to produce but haven't. It gets old.


I know why you guys are so vocal in this thread, it's because you don't have the intellectual honesty to admit pentax did something that appeals to a lot of people, but not yourselves, and that's 100% on you, not Pentax. Pentax never said they were going to do anything different, in fact, they keep telling you they aren't going to do anything different, and you keep being unable to understand why they do things the way they do.

It really makes you guys angry that Pentax can be successful without subscribing to your opinions about how the camera make should be doesn't. They are like the pea under you mattress. You endless proselytizing for how you think a camera should be made just confirms how upsetting this is to you. You dismiss it, because it goes against everything you believe in. Well the point is, this is not a matter of belief. It's straight economics and Pentax has pulled in some customers from other brands. using their unique philosophy. Learn to live with it peacefully, quit annoying the rest of us and ruining threads where pentax users with have chance to sit back and celebrate the things Pentax has done right, with your endless whining and complaining.

Last edited by normhead; 04-20-2017 at 08:32 AM.
04-20-2017, 08:06 AM - 4 Likes   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Those are very good points but they make an assumption that "winning" should be the goal.

My personal experience is that mainstream brands -- those that target "winning" -- suck for me. MacDonalds, Microsoft, CocaCola, Budweiser, Kraft Cheese, etc. have all "won" the most marketshare but they've lost me as a customer.

Give me pixelshift & astrotracer any day of the week and twice on Sunday! And let other brands focus on making P-mode video cameras. Sure, if lightning fast, crazy accurate AF were free (as in zero R&D and zero change in cost of goods), then add it. And if 4k video were free, then add it. I'm not bothered by bloat or unused features in the camera. But these features aren't free and I'd rather Pentax prioritize still photography.
K-1 really is pretty close to perfect (in my opinion) for a landscape photographer who can't afford a medium format set up. You don't need ultra fast auto focus, 36 megapixels is probably fine, but having a maximum low iso dynamic range (achievable with pixel shift) is where it is at. Adding an extra 20 fps wouldn't really help out. Adding video and better high iso performance at the cost of low iso performance (as with the 42 megapixel sensor available from Sony) wouldn't be helpful either.

There need to be different options out there for photographers and we can find that camera that works best and use it.
04-20-2017, 08:23 AM - 3 Likes   #75
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I'm happy that that K-1 is doing well. Looks to be a fantastic stills camera and I might own one someday. But the OP editorialized and called video a "gimmick". Had he kept to the sales figures we might not be having this conversation about video and instead celebrating the success of a good camera.
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