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04-20-2017, 08:53 AM - 1 Like   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I'm happy that that K-1 is doing well. Looks to be a fantastic stills camera and I might own one someday. But the OP editorialized and called video a "gimmick". Had he kept to the sales figures we might not be having this conversation about video and instead celebrating the success of a good camera.
I responded to that part of the OP's post and thus unfortunately hijacked the K-1 thread.
  • I own a K-1
  • I don't need great video and I don't shoot much
  • I truly believe Pentax misses marginal APSc sales because video matters to many camera buyers
  • I presented real-world, objective observation, not supposition
  • If Pentax knows this and still has factored what they believe is a profitable product roadmap, OK then.
K-1 is the perfect implementation of my needs. I just have to remind myself I don't need to roll 10fps to catch a baby smile. I can borrow my son's RAW.

I'm out.

04-20-2017, 09:30 AM - 3 Likes   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
How do you guys make up your minds as to who should do what the other company does?
By identifying a weak point, find cases in which someone needed the corresponding specific feature, and then... "Pentax lost customers because of X! They should fix it!".
And if it's fixed... wash, rinse, repeat.
04-20-2017, 10:04 AM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I'm happy that that K-1 is doing well. Looks to be a fantastic stills camera and I might own one someday. But the OP editorialized and called video a "gimmick". Had he kept to the sales figures we might not be having this conversation about video and instead celebrating the success of a good camera.
In a sense, the K-1 is what it is. I have always viewed it as a D810-lite for considerably cheaper price. Pentax can with firmware offer focus peaking and mechanical SR with the K-1's video, but otherwise, without changing the sensor, further upgrade is probably not possible.

The problem on the forum is that on one side, people feel the need to say that video is stupid and they wish Pentax wouldn't waste R and D expense on it and on the other side, there are plenty that say that they won't buy another Pentax till they have "decent" video.

Hopefully we can just see incremental improvements in video on Pentax SLRs. All of the SLRs they have do offer video now and it is decent. Not 4K, but reasonable for people who don't need 4K (most SLRs still don't have 4K at this point).

Is video a gimmick? Certainly not. But I also have a hard time sorting out how many people need more video capabilities on their ILC than what Pentax offers, either.
04-20-2017, 10:41 AM - 1 Like   #79
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To many of us video is a gimmick.

I taught video for 15 years, and as soon as I retired I never used a video camera again. Don't tell me what is and what isn't a gimmick. To me, it's a gimmick and I wouldn't pay another 20 bucks on top of the cost of a K-1 for better video. So, there's is absolutely nothing wrong with a Pentax shooter calling video a gimmick. If you don't have that mindset you shouldn't be shooting Pentax. If i want a camera for video, I'll buy one to the specs i want. I would never expect that to be built into a still camera. But then, back when I was teaching I had 6 dedicated video cameras the size of my whole K-1 kit. My advice to those who think video isn't an add on gimmick on a still camera is shoot with some real video equipment. Get a sense of what you are talking about.

04-20-2017, 10:57 AM   #80
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Video

I'm a long time user of Pentax and shoot K1. I'm happy enough with the quality but the thing that annoys me intensely is the lack of autofocus in video. As an example I'm off to Longleat tomorrow and Avebury on Saturday with the family. I will be bringing the K1 but I certainly do want to shoot some video of our family day out. 1080P is adequate for this - indeed anything more just wastes hard disc space but I really could do with autofocus - especially when canon have offered autofocus video capable DSLR's since 2013!

I have no idea why my wife's Pentax MX-1 can do autofocus video at 1080 resolution for 300 but my 3000 K1 can't!

Jonlg

PS good news on the K1 sales!
04-20-2017, 11:16 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
In a sense, the K-1 is what it is.
And that is, the right decision.
"D810-lite" is a good general description, but that's not all. The K-1 is also:
- 2000 euro (more like 2200 now)
- high resolution
- available on the market since April 2016
Those 3 characteristics are incompatible with the idea of a significantly(*) improved video.

(*) to rule out things like SR in video mode, which apparently is possible and will be available through a firmware update.
04-20-2017, 11:19 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I wouldn't pay another 20 bucks on top of the cost of a K-1 for better video.

I would!


Stormy, tell us what specific 6 video cameras you had at your disposal?
04-20-2017, 11:55 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
I swear Pentax is a nerd brand which is why I love it, but nerd brands don't win. What headline reads better, "Pentax introduces camera with lightning fast, crazy accurate AF" or, "Pentax introduces camera with Pixelshift, which increases dynamic range and sharpness when used with a tripod with a completely still subject"?
Oddly enough, I find Pentax the least nerdy brand. Yes, Pentax does have some special technology unique to itself (mostly consisting of novel ways of using IBIS), but when it comes to overall tech, they tend to trail everyone else, particularly in AF and video. Pentax's strength seems to be in harnessing tech in more traditional, pragmatic and user friendly ways. The user gives up state of the art video and AF in return for better ergonomics and handling, along with a greater emphasis on subjective perceptual image quality, rather than over-relying on numerical evaluations that don't always enjoy full correlation to subjective experience. Unfortunately, the these advantages are subtle and can only be appreciated through long-term use. They are not the type of advantages that market well.

QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
Sony just overtook Nikon as #2 in the camera market by delivering massively on nearly every aspect of the camera excluding an OVF.
Sony sold more FF cameras than Nikon in the US market in January and February. That hardly makes Sony #2 in the camera market overall. Nikon has a significantly larger user base, which constitutes a significant advantage.

I have some doubts that, whatever success in the short term Sony may enjoy, that their mirrorless cameras will exhibit the lasting success enjoyed by Canon and Nikon. Sony is strong in tech but weak in tradition, and I suspect this could catch up to them in the end. In the local camera club, we've had six users that, in recent years, adopted Sony mirrorless systems. One of these users has moved to Canon FF; a second one is contemplating a move to the Pentax K-1 (he's deeply frustrated with Sony handling); two others are experiencing regrets about moving to Sony and advising others to stay away from the brand; while the final two, while hardly over-enthusiastic about their Sony stuff, are nonetheless comfortable with it. If camera manufacturers wants to produce gear that connects with their users, they have to offer more than just the latest and greatest tech. Sony, when they moved away from DSLRs in mirrorless and SLTs, seems to have snuffed out whatever Minolta DNA remained in the company, thereby cutting the company off from traditions of interface and ergonomic designs.

04-20-2017, 12:19 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonlg Quote
but the thing that annoys me intensely is the lack of autofocus in video.
Really, hum, AF also works in video more with the K1, but it is a smooth motion, press the ack button AF and wait, the camera slowly refocuses, unless there is something disabled in your video settings.
04-20-2017, 12:35 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And that is, the right decision.
"D810-lite" is a good general description, but that's not all. The K-1 is also:
- 2000 euro (more like 2200 now)
- high resolution
- available on the market since April 2016
Those 3 characteristics are incompatible with the idea of a significantly(*) improved video.

(*) to rule out things like SR in video mode, which apparently is possible and will be available through a firmware update.
It's a constantly moving target.

How many full frame cameras had 4K video when the K-1 was released? How many have it now? Neither number is particularly high, even now.
04-20-2017, 12:49 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
How many full frame cameras had 4K video when the K-1 was released? How many have it now? Neither number is particularly high, even now.
2Sonys and Nikon D5...Canon added it with the 4th 5D....


So all at a much higher cost than the K1
04-20-2017, 12:54 PM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
K-1 really is pretty close to perfect (in my opinion) for a landscape photographer who can't afford a medium format set up. You don't need ultra fast auto focus, 36 megapixels is probably fine, but having a maximum low iso dynamic range (achievable with pixel shift) is where it is at. Adding an extra 20 fps wouldn't really help out. Adding video and better high iso performance at the cost of low iso performance (as with the 42 megapixel sensor available from Sony) wouldn't be helpful either.

There need to be different options out there for photographers and we can find that camera that works best and use it.
Exactly! Although I'd say that the K-1 may be a superior camera for hikers or for those seeking a wider range of focal lengths. I carry seven lenses covering 12 to 600 mm on long hikes which is wider than what's available in medium format and significantly lighter than what's possible with medium format. I also highly value IBIS, which rules out all the MF, Canon, and Nikon options.

Thus, it's not an issue of affordability. If you gave me a free pass to take anything I wanted from B&H for free but then had to use that equipment, I'd pick the K-1 and a similar lineup of lenses to what I have now. I'd not pick medium format or anything from Canon, Nikon, or Sony because they don't offer the balance of features, weight, IQ, lenses, ergonomics, ruggedness, etc. that the K-1 offers.

But that's my personal opinion and I can certainly see why others might gravitate to the 645Z, or Canon, or Nikon, or Sony, or.......whatever. Every camera on the market is good for something. And every camera on the market (even the flagship models) are bad for something else.

Even if the K-1 is not the perfect camera for every shooter on the planet, this news shows that it's attracting interest from outside the K-mount bubble. And that's good news.
04-20-2017, 01:00 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It's a constantly moving target.
Yes, correct, it's hard to focus on, that's what I'll try my luck tomorrow at birding national park, the wind of today should slow down tomorrow, and some rain is foretasted on Saturday (I don't care if Sony does 24K video and Pentax does not match it...) I guess the rain and cold may become a show stopper, and 4K video wouldn't help with rain, but a $20 raincoat will help much more than any Sony A9.
We have to keep our feet grounded, otherwise this online stuff can easily inflate much more than needed.
04-20-2017, 02:03 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
To many of us video is a gimmick.

I taught video for 15 years, and as soon as I retired I never used a video camera again. Don't tell me what is and what isn't a gimmick. To me, it's a gimmick and I wouldn't pay another 20 bucks on top of the cost of a K-1 for better video. So, there's is absolutely nothing wrong with a Pentax shooter calling video a gimmick. If you don't have that mindset you shouldn't be shooting Pentax. If i want a camera for video, I'll buy one to the specs i want. I would never expect that to be built into a still camera. But then, back when I was teaching I had 6 dedicated video cameras the size of my whole K-1 kit. My advice to those who think video isn't an add on gimmick on a still camera is shoot with some real video equipment. Get a sense of what you are talking about.
Very "on target".

I never, ever, shot video on any of my Pentax bodies, and probably never will - unless there's a fire in the building or something, and I don't have my mobile with me. I am interested in photography (on my own very limited level), not in video. I couldn't care less about the video capabilities of a photographic camera - it's good to have it for an emergency, but that's it for me. I wouldn't spend a further dollar for the damn thing.

If people want video capabilities, I'd say search somewhere else. That's one of the reasons I chose Pentax: providing cameras that are designed with photography in mind - the whole concept of shooting video on a dslr is somewhat strange for me, but maybe I'm old fashioned.

I too feel that cameras like the the new Sony A9 are not for people like me, and possibly many Pentax users, who like to "see" with the camera, as a means to show a particular moment in time. All else, AF, AE, SR, whatever, are little bonuses, not essentials. I love the sound of the shutter, I like being forced to think before I shoot something.

But I digress...

So, anyway: Pentax can and should provide better video capabilities, if feasible, but not as a central part of the camera - I'm very happy with the K-1, it's one hell of a camera and I would feel dumb using it to shoot videos of my silly dogs running around. My android phone is perfectly suitable for that. But when it comes to photos, I'm a perfectly happy camper.
04-20-2017, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Ricoh has been buying older technology sensors. The 36MP in the K-1 is based on the same generation of sensor technology as the K-5. Ricoh is obviously getting excellent results from these sensors in terms of still photography. None of the cameras that use the older Sony 36MP sensor do well at video because that sensor isn't fast enough. That is also why all of the cameras with that sensor have rather slow CDAF.

Everything about 4K is standard. Its all hardware related so there is not a lot to develop for other than the camera firmware. Sony has developed 2 FF sensors with good 4K video. One is in the 12MP A7s and the other is in the 42MP A7rII. When the 42MP sensor becomes cheap enough, Ricoh will probably start using it. I think 8K broadcasting will be coming to Japan next year, and Dell is now shipping 8K monitors. In 3-5 years 8K will be as common and 4K is now. That is probably when we will see a K-mount camera with decent 4K support.

Ricoh is obviously not spending money on the newest sensor, fastest memory/biggest buffer or other support technologies like USB3.0 or SDXC UHS-II.
That's why most of us love them, and others always want the latest greatest. Just most of us are smart enough to understand, it's unlikely both of those products, cheap tested true and older technologies and cutting edge modern technologies are often not available from the same company. Pentax makes their living making better technology than their competitors had on their 3 to 5 year old cameras, hoping folks will upgrade to Pentax for a slight improvement, rather than going for the latest and greatest at much higher cost. It's actually a very good business plan for a small company.
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