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10-29-2017, 07:09 AM   #991
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Just to clarify the dynamic range has nothing to do with the number of bits of the encoding.
"Nothing to do with it" is a bit too strong. If the sensor amplifiers and ADC are linear, then the number of bits defines the upper bound on DR. The lowest signal measurable in a system (and thus that side of the DR calculation) can be limited by either analog noise or digital round-off error.

Obviously if one starts mucking about with gamma, log-transforms, and floating point, then the DR can be higher than implied by the linear signal model and the bit depth. For example, a 16-bit half-precision float could offer a DR of up to 40 EV if one allows subnormal numbers.

10-29-2017, 07:23 AM   #992
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Just to clarify the dynamic range has nothing to do with the number of bits of the encoding.
In the case of consumer camera sensors, if the light to voltage transfer function is a straight line (not a log), then the max input dynamic range for a single capture is defined by the number of bits used for encoding. The case of audio encoding is different as there can be a log compression that happens to be before A/D conversion, allowing more dynamic range of the input.
10-29-2017, 05:06 PM   #993
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My wish is that they would increase the frame per second of the follow on to the K1, I was at the Ft Worth Alliance Air Show this weekend in the photo-pit with a bunch of canikon shooters and it was sad that I had to stop shooting half-way thru when the camera would be trying to process my pef files as fast as it could but just couldn't keep up with the canikons shooters, I truly love my K1 but they could hit a home run if they would just get the FPS up to the others.
10-30-2017, 12:55 AM   #994
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
"Nothing to do with it" is a bit too strong. ...

Obviously if one starts mucking about with gamma, log-transforms, and floating point, then the DR can be higher than implied by the linear signal model and the bit depth.
While "nothing to do" is too extreme, it is perfectly valid to say that bit-depth is neither a pre-requisite or proof of capability for any DR requirements.
Any trivial departure from consequent linear encoding breaks the relationship. Using a gamma is already "complex". They simply could use a fixed "bend" point (e.g. at low light) to extend it all within the same number of bits. Since data is both noisy and scattered there nearly nobody would ever recognize.
Too many people believe in the marketing fairy tales of "unpreprocessed" "raw" data and fully linear encoding.

10-30-2017, 06:06 AM   #995
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QuoteOriginally posted by KA5TXL Quote
My wish is that they would increase the frame per second of the follow on to the K1,... when the camera would be trying to process my pef files as fast as it could but just couldn't keep up with the canikons shooters...
This looks more like a buffer full due to slow write speed of the camera to the card ( or slow internal image processing).
Unfortunately, even though modern SDXC cards can write at a speed that matches (or close, if you're not rich) the camera fps, that ability isn't being used
10-30-2017, 06:18 AM - 1 Like   #996
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QuoteOriginally posted by KA5TXL Quote
My wish is that they would increase the frame per second of the follow on to the K1, I was at the Ft Worth Alliance Air Show this weekend in the photo-pit with a bunch of canikon shooters and it was sad that I had to stop shooting half-way thru when the camera would be trying to process my pef files as fast as it could but just couldn't keep up with the canikons shooters, I truly love my K1 but they could hit a home run if they would just get the FPS up to the others.
There's the K-3 for that. 23 shot buffer, 8 FPS. You still can't keep up with the high frame rate big buffer Canons, Nikons and Sonys, but you have to realize, they are shooting 24 MP or less. You also have to realize how much more they pay for those camera than you paid for your K-1. That technology doesn't come cheap. I don't feel at a disadvantage shooting beside those guys with my K-3 and often I get the best image.
10-30-2017, 06:27 AM   #997
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
While "nothing to do" is too extreme, it is perfectly valid to say that bit-depth is neither a pre-requisite or proof of capability for any DR requirements.
Any trivial departure from consequent linear encoding breaks the relationship. Using a gamma is already "complex". They simply could use a fixed "bend" point (e.g. at low light) to extend it all within the same number of bits. Since data is both noisy and scattered there nearly nobody would ever recognize.
Too many people believe in the marketing fairy tales of "unpreprocessed" "raw" data and fully linear encoding.
It may be logically valid to say what you said about bit-depth & DR but within the context of actual products, the two are coupled. The engineers that design these products are not going to slap a high bit-depth ADC on a low-DR sensor. Nor are they going to ruin the performance of a high-DR sensor with a low bit-depth ADC. Sensor DR and ADC bit-depth will be matched to each other and that means that within a give product category (e.g., digital cameras) that bit-depth and DR are strongly related to each other.


That "bend" in the gains does sound simple and can be implemented in monochrome sensors with a single read-out circuit but it's a mess for sensors with multiple read-out and for Bayer color sensors. In the multiple tap case, there's the problem of ensuring that all read-out circuits have identical and time/temperature-stable bend points otherwise the image will have some kind of banding anywhere adjacent pixels went through different circuits. For a color sensor, the bend creates color anomalies through differential gain of R, G, and B with both shifts in hue and saturation that depend on luminance.

Last edited by photoptimist; 10-30-2017 at 06:34 AM.
11-23-2017, 07:18 PM   #998
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Not sure why you would jump from Nikon to Pentax tbh, if you have used the 3d autofocus system on a high end nikon you would not want to swap.

Canon has garbage sensors so I can see why you would there.

11-23-2017, 07:51 PM   #999
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
Not sure why you would jump from Nikon to Pentax tbh, if you have used the 3d autofocus system on a high end nikon you would not want to swap.
Because really fast AF not all that useful all that often and Pentax provides better value, looking at the big picture?

That could be it?
11-23-2017, 08:19 PM   #1000
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Sure but the better af system on the nikon is possibly worth the price difference.

I actually just picked up a d7200 which has the amazing AF system for $1000 aud. So the value proposition on Nikon is much better than it used to be.
11-23-2017, 09:25 PM   #1001
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
Sure but the better af system on the nikon is possibly worth the price difference.

I actually just picked up a d7200 which has the amazing AF system for $1000 aud. So the value proposition on Nikon is much better than it used to be.
Which brings us to "Black Friday [week]," when we have yet to see anything but the same battery grip deal they've been running lately with the K-1, and no movement on price. Long told that Pentax's advantage is features for the price, I'm sitting here looking at a D750 with battery grip on Adorama for $1496.95, a full $400 less than the K-1. Everybody, including Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic and Sony is discounting something, in some cases, desirable bodies at steeply discounted prices.

It leaves me wondering whether Ricoh really cares about cameras, and whether I've been stupid for sticking with Pentax. I love that Pentax puts image stabilization in its bodies, and I absolutely adore my Limited (DA and FA) lenses. The absence of equivalents is what keeps me from seriously considering a switch. With my uptick in overseas travel, weight and size have become factors, and Pentax is now losing points with me on specs that never mattered before. Sony's mirrorless APS-C and FF bodies have my attention (granted the latter are in another price bracket,) and so does this FF, weather-sealed Nikon that weighs 200g less, and costs $400 less, than the K-1. In-body IS is great, but in a kilogram boat anchor with industry-trailing AF, the K-1 suddenly doesn't seem like the shiny object I lust for. The magical, mythical camera that's reasonably small, light, fast- and accurately-focusing, produces excellent IQ, sealed, stabilized, and has glass you're happy to travel with is far more likely to say "SONY" on it than "PENTAX." I'm not leaving, just majorly bummed, knowing that it's only the money I've spent on much-loved glass that will keep me with this brand. Offering nothing this week while the competition battles for business is simply disheartening.
11-23-2017, 09:30 PM   #1002
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QuoteOriginally posted by Glarus Quote
Which brings us to "Black Friday [week]," when we have yet to see anything but the same battery grip deal they've been running lately with the K-1, and no movement on price. Long told that Pentax's advantage is features for the price, I'm sitting here looking at a D750 with battery grip on Adorama for $1496.95, a full $400 less than the K-1. .
It's only a 24Mp camera, Glarus, without IBIS and GPS, but if that's what you want, you should get it.

No one's stopping you.
11-23-2017, 10:11 PM   #1003
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's only a 24Mp camera, Glarus, without IBIS and GPS, but if that's what you want, you should get it.

No one's stopping you.
You're right, no one is, but it's not what I want. I want Ricoh to want me to buy a K-1, despite its heft and bulk. If they can't rekindle that lust for a Pentax FF on Black Friday, then when? If they're selling them all at full price and don't need me to buy one, then great! I'll keep enjoying my K-3 (and I usually do!) and eagerly await the great products that will result when they reinvest the profits in the camera division. I just don't get the impression Ricoh is trying to find the right products and right prices in a camera market that's struggling to compete with an entirely different line of products (camera phones.) Everyone else seems to be doing that, and if you're not in people's inbox for Black Friday, in ads like B-H, Adorama or even Best Buy, you don't even really "exist" except to the loyal people, in this case the "Pentaxians," who alone probably can't keep the division afloat. At some point you need new blood. Hoya tried to take the low road, with cheaper cameras in lots of colors, and it failed. Other companies are trying higher roads, having figured that big cameras aren't really competing for business from teeny-boppers with camera phones. The probable target for FF, at least in the US, is mostly men with above-average income who like "stuff" (big boy toys, like boats, guns and golf clubs.) The lower end of DSLR, the kits I see at warehouse club stores, is also targeted at the same demographic, but at the people who aren't so much into "stuff," they just know they want better pictures of their kids than their iPhone is giving. And $499 for a cheap Nikon with lens they can grab at Costco sounds good to them, especially if they remember seeing it rated well in Consumer Reports. The NY Lottery motto used to be (and maybe still is,) "you gotta be in it to win it." Based on what I'm seeing this week, Pentax is not "in it." On the low end, I've never seen a Pentax DSLR for sale in a U.S. brick-and-mortar chain store, and on the high end (FF,) well, I've covered that.

ETA; Thanks to "cash back" sites, I have perhaps found an acceptable K-1 deal. That's one way around price-fixing...
ETA2: $1769.66 for the body and grip after cash back ($93.14) gets deposited*, and we're done. Like I said, I'm not leaving Pentax. And I didn't mean to state that the D750 and K-1 are a comparison I'm making, just that if someone's looking to go FF, the price is attractive compared to the...Pentax? Never heard of 'em.

* Jet.com + Ebates (5%)

Last edited by Glarus; 11-24-2017 at 02:01 PM.
11-24-2017, 12:36 AM - 1 Like   #1004
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QuoteOriginally posted by Glarus Quote
a D750 with battery grip on Adorama for $1496.95,
Is that the Nikon that has had 3 recalls?
11-24-2017, 01:03 AM   #1005
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Because really fast AF not all that useful all that often and Pentax provides better value, looking at the big picture?

That could be it?
On AF criticality, everyone has I guess has a different point of view.

And you, or another guy have yet another definition of "better value" or the importance of AF of what they like and dislike.

But so is the better value. I can find K3/K3-II with great value. Not so much a KP or K1 (the value was ok at release, now too expensive for K1). And there D7200/D7300 body with great value as well as D610/D750 or D850 but not D5. I like the idea that in Canikon I can get cheaper off brand lens deals, not so much I quite restricted in Pentax/Sony. I like the small light limited lenses not so much the huge/heavy DFA and most modern lenses from most brands...

Out of many features, I came to appreciate fast, reliable AFC to be one of the most important feature of a camera while I find GPS, wifi, pixel shift and other are gimmick. But that only me.

Ultimately, the market share is the indicator as if a given company provides product people want (in that given market). The profitability say if they are efficiant or not at their job. The evolution of sales/profitability if it is worth to invest in it and if they'll be there for the long term or not, if they'll grow or if they have to fire peoples or stop activities.
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