For each Pentaxian buying K-1 another Nikon/Canon shooter jumped ship to Pentax

**richard0170** · 09-16-2017, 12:11 AM

OK, I did consider a k1, when it came available because I thought it would be good for use with my wide angle PK and PKA lenses, but did n't buy it after handling it as I did not like the massive bulk - that's just my personal taste not a criticism of the camera. I was n't tempted by it's 36m mp's though.
As to the XE3, I am tempted, but I won't buy due to the cost of adopting another system. I already get good B&W shots with my film stuff, so what is the point for me of doing so? A K3 update with improved B&W would be another matter though. For me the main beauty of digital is its versatility, I would love to be able to take a good colour shot one minute and a good B&W the next on the same camera. I don't want to carry 2 cameras about all the time.
As to 4k video, I don't shoot video for artistic purposes, and my smartphone suffices. I also suspect 4k, and when it arrives 8k, is a costly gimmick. Great, you can get super high resolution moving images, but do you have the monitors to view them on? Can you be bothered to wait for the files to upload? Do you have access to the kind of subjects that warrant such resolution and the other equipment needed to actually show the benefit? There will be some who will, but most of us won't, To get the best out of the new technology will require a big investment in other things. Fine to add it onto a camera if it does not cost much to do so, but otherwise why bother?

Racer X 69 · 09-16-2017, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by normhead

. . . . . . . . . but it forces me to use a tripod, the two second timer and the electronic shutter. How can those things not be good?

Kinda what photography is supposed to be about, isn't it?

surfar · 09-16-2017, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by richard0170

I would love to be able to take a good colour shot one minute and a good B&W the next on the same camera. I don't want to carry 2 cameras about all the time.

Are you aware that Fuji can take the same shot in 3 different Film simulations with one click of the shutter?

Acros/Provia/Velvia is a popular combo....The latest Fuji bodies offer 15 simulations.

**Rondec** · 09-16-2017, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by richard0170

Who needs all this massive resolution? Not the big majority of us. Nikon dropped down to 20MP for its d500 and d7500. The 24mp of my K3 is plenty for a hobbyist. What I would love to see from Pentax is a camera with with the K3's resolution, and decent B&W output. My Ricoh GRiv, when I had it and my Pentax Q, both create(d) nicer B&W images than my K3 can manage. My partner's ancient Sony P&S and Canon S120, again produce nicer B&W images. My Motorola smartphone, now 2 years old, same story. Pentax are not unique in this regard with larger sensors, I never liked the B&W on my Fuji X100 either. Fuji seem to have realised this with their Acros simulation, but I do not really want to drop a boat load of money on a new system just for B&W. Improved battery life would also be desirable. Otherwise, I'm really happy with my K3 and I do not see any significant improvement, worth its cost, of a KP, which name reminds me of a certain ex-England cricketer, and some deficiencies regarding ergonomics. Arguably Nikon has not released any camera which is significantly better than their D7100, at the same price point of that camera.
It seems that technology is reaching a plateau, where only tiny improvements regarding ISO performance and AF speed and accuracy, which most of us don't need, come at an ever greater cost

Nikon went with that particular sensor to increase frame rates and add 4K video and clearly the difference between 20.9 and 24 megapixels or whatever was in the D7200 versus the D7500 is miniscule -- not a big enough difference to be seen in real world shooting.

Have you tried developing RAW images with Nik Effects Silver Efex? It is free and it has a lot of options which can fill in if straight out of camera black and white settings aren't cutting it.

**richard0170** · 09-16-2017, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Nikon went with that particular sensor to increase frame rates and add 4K video and clearly the difference between 20.9 and 24 megapixels or whatever was in the D7200 versus the D7500 is miniscule -- not a big enough difference to be seen in real world shooting.

Have you tried developing RAW images with Nik Effects Silver Efex? It is free and it has a lot of options which can fill in if straight out of camera black and white settings aren't cutting it.

No not heard of it, but will give it e try. Thanks

normhead · 09-16-2017, 11:42 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Racer X 69

Kinda what photography is supposed to be about, isn't it?

The answer is different depending on if you are talking to Andy Warhol or Ansel Adams.

I've heard it both ways.

biz-engineer · 09-17-2017, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by photoptimist

My guess is that each pixel could have hundreds of transistors per pixels but there may not be enough room for a high-bit-depth ADC is not clear given the need for passive components and larger analog signal transistors).

That's a good point. I can hardly see a 14bits ADC fitting into a 3um square. IMO, we are back to square one. DR talk is more for the sake of discussion, I believe. Anyone can bracket 5 shots with a K1 and fuse them with Enfuse, the DR is limited by the display medium.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-17-2017 at 02:18 AM.

Racer X 69 · 09-17-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The answer is different depending on if you are talking to Andy Warhol or Ansel Adams.

Kinda hard to talk to either of them now. Well, I suppose you could talk with them, but they won't do much more than listen.

normhead · 09-17-2017, 09:38 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Racer X 69

Kinda hard to talk to either of them now. Well, I suppose you could talk with them, but they won't do much more than listen.

Are you saying you never have conversations with dead people?

How weird is that?

Racer X 69 · 09-17-2017, 09:58 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by normhead

Are you saying you never have conversations with dead people?

How weird is that?

Well I talk to myself now and then.

The only intelligent conversation I can find sometimes.

Nicolas06 · 10-28-2017, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

That's a good point. I can hardly see a 14bits ADC fitting into a 3um square. IMO, we are back to square one. DR talk is more for the sake of discussion, I believe. Anyone can bracket 5 shots with a K1 and fuse them with Enfuse, the DR is limited by the display medium.

red latest product get 8K 60p and 17EV of dynamic range on top of 36MP stills. Sure the product is $79000 but this show that sensor with higher dynamic range are possible, as well as faster reads. As the rate technologies goes, we get that sooner than some might think in consumer products. We don't know what we be considered standard in a few years for consumer products in the same price range as a typical FF body today...

solitudebound · 10-28-2017, 07:15 AM

I was interested in the Nikon D850 considering the number of Nikon lenses i have. However i don't yet see the "significant" improvement over a K-1 or D810 when it comes to image quality. D850 better AF and focus stacking doesn't come across as enough to justify the price tag at least for me. A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor and a better shutter would make more sense for the cost and probably fit the "catch all" term better than the D850.
None the less i bought a K-1 and are interested in the potential K-3 mark 3. There is stiff competition especially from Fujifilm, i tried the X-E3 and it didn't disappoint considering my recent bad luck with Fujifilm, they actually listened.

I really do hope that Pentax (Ricoh) does pull a rabbit out of their hat with the K-3 mark 3.

biz-engineer · 10-28-2017, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

red latest product get 8K 60p and 17EV of dynamic range

It is a video cam. It is very easy to pull 17ev of dynamic range out of a 36Mp sensor down sampled to 8K, especially when the sensor is about 22x44mm large. There is an array of larger pixels interwoven with an array of smaller pixel both having different sensitivities, the two data set are merged after conversion. With regards to resolution it doesn't stack-up to still camera sensors.

Originally posted by solitudebound

A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor

That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns.

solitudebound · 10-28-2017, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

It is a video cam. It is very easy to pull 17ev of dynamic range out of a 36Mp sensor down sampled to 8K, especially when the sensor is about 22x44mm large. There is an array of larger pixels interwoven with an array of smaller pixel both having different sensitivities, the two data set are merged after conversion. With regards to resolution it doesn't stack-up to still camera sensors.

That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns.

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Originally posted by solitudebound
A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor
That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns.

Curious yet interesting.

normhead · 10-28-2017, 09:27 AM

Dynamic range is the difference between the lowest level recorded and the most intense level recorded. Theoretically, I don't see how reducing the size of the image affects those metrics.

So, I'm not buying it, until I see a theoretical explanation and images to show the difference is observable.

Exactly how does reducing the size of the image either lower the lowest value recorded, or extend the highest value recorded. That is a function of the sensor not image size.

I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.

Saying if I reduce my image size from 7200 pixels to 1080 pixels increases my dynamic range to 17 EV of more, sounds like science fiction.

10-28-2017, 07:15 AM	#957
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	I was interested in the Nikon D850 considering the number of Nikon lenses i have. However i don't yet see the "significant" improvement over a K-1 or D810 when it comes to image quality. D850 better AF and focus stacking doesn't come across as enough to justify the price tag at least for me. A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor and a better shutter would make more sense for the cost and probably fit the "catch all" term better than the D850. None the less i bought a K-1 and are interested in the potential K-3 mark 3. There is stiff competition especially from Fujifilm, i tried the X-E3 and it didn't disappoint considering my recent bad luck with Fujifilm, they actually listened. I really do hope that Pentax (Ricoh) does pull a rabbit out of their hat with the K-3 mark 3. Last edited by solitudebound; 10-28-2017 at 07:25 AM.

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09-16-2017, 12:11 AM	#946
richard0170 Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,034	OK, I did consider a k1, when it came available because I thought it would be good for use with my wide angle PK and PKA lenses, but did n't buy it after handling it as I did not like the massive bulk - that's just my personal taste not a criticism of the camera. I was n't tempted by it's 36m mp's though. As to the XE3, I am tempted, but I won't buy due to the cost of adopting another system. I already get good B&W shots with my film stuff, so what is the point for me of doing so? A K3 update with improved B&W would be another matter though. For me the main beauty of digital is its versatility, I would love to be able to take a good colour shot one minute and a good B&W the next on the same camera. I don't want to carry 2 cameras about all the time. As to 4k video, I don't shoot video for artistic purposes, and my smartphone suffices. I also suspect 4k, and when it arrives 8k, is a costly gimmick. Great, you can get super high resolution moving images, but do you have the monitors to view them on? Can you be bothered to wait for the files to upload? Do you have access to the kind of subjects that warrant such resolution and the other equipment needed to actually show the benefit? There will be some who will, but most of us won't, To get the best out of the new technology will require a big investment in other things. Fine to add it onto a camera if it does not cost much to do so, but otherwise why bother?

09-16-2017, 01:08 AM	#947
Racer X 69 Moderator Man With A Camera Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet, in the Land Between Canada and Mexico Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,073	Originally posted by normhead . . . . . . . . . but it forces me to use a tripod, the two second timer and the electronic shutter. How can those things not be good? Kinda what photography is supposed to be about, isn't it?

09-16-2017, 01:33 AM	#948
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,145	Originally posted by richard0170 I would love to be able to take a good colour shot one minute and a good B&W the next on the same camera. I don't want to carry 2 cameras about all the time. Are you aware that Fuji can take the same shot in 3 different Film simulations with one click of the shutter? Acros/Provia/Velvia is a popular combo....The latest Fuji bodies offer 15 simulations.

09-16-2017, 02:24 AM	#949
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by richard0170 Who needs all this massive resolution? Not the big majority of us. Nikon dropped down to 20MP for its d500 and d7500. The 24mp of my K3 is plenty for a hobbyist. What I would love to see from Pentax is a camera with with the K3's resolution, and decent B&W output. My Ricoh GRiv, when I had it and my Pentax Q, both create(d) nicer B&W images than my K3 can manage. My partner's ancient Sony P&S and Canon S120, again produce nicer B&W images. My Motorola smartphone, now 2 years old, same story. Pentax are not unique in this regard with larger sensors, I never liked the B&W on my Fuji X100 either. Fuji seem to have realised this with their Acros simulation, but I do not really want to drop a boat load of money on a new system just for B&W. Improved battery life would also be desirable. Otherwise, I'm really happy with my K3 and I do not see any significant improvement, worth its cost, of a KP, which name reminds me of a certain ex-England cricketer, and some deficiencies regarding ergonomics. Arguably Nikon has not released any camera which is significantly better than their D7100, at the same price point of that camera. It seems that technology is reaching a plateau, where only tiny improvements regarding ISO performance and AF speed and accuracy, which most of us don't need, come at an ever greater cost Nikon went with that particular sensor to increase frame rates and add 4K video and clearly the difference between 20.9 and 24 megapixels or whatever was in the D7200 versus the D7500 is miniscule -- not a big enough difference to be seen in real world shooting. Have you tried developing RAW images with Nik Effects Silver Efex? It is free and it has a lot of options which can fill in if straight out of camera black and white settings aren't cutting it.

09-16-2017, 05:59 AM	#950
richard0170 Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,034	Originally posted by Rondec Nikon went with that particular sensor to increase frame rates and add 4K video and clearly the difference between 20.9 and 24 megapixels or whatever was in the D7200 versus the D7500 is miniscule -- not a big enough difference to be seen in real world shooting. Have you tried developing RAW images with Nik Effects Silver Efex? It is free and it has a lot of options which can fill in if straight out of camera black and white settings aren't cutting it. No not heard of it, but will give it e try. Thanks

09-16-2017, 11:42 AM - 1 Like	#951
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Racer X 69 Kinda what photography is supposed to be about, isn't it? The answer is different depending on if you are talking to Andy Warhol or Ansel Adams. I've heard it both ways.

09-17-2017, 01:55 AM	#952
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,247	Originally posted by photoptimist My guess is that each pixel could have hundreds of transistors per pixels but there may not be enough room for a high-bit-depth ADC is not clear given the need for passive components and larger analog signal transistors). That's a good point. I can hardly see a 14bits ADC fitting into a 3um square. IMO, we are back to square one. DR talk is more for the sake of discussion, I believe. Anyone can bracket 5 shots with a K1 and fuse them with Enfuse, the DR is limited by the display medium. Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-17-2017 at 02:18 AM.

09-17-2017, 09:29 AM	#953
Racer X 69 Moderator Man With A Camera Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet, in the Land Between Canada and Mexico Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,073	Originally posted by normhead The answer is different depending on if you are talking to Andy Warhol or Ansel Adams. Kinda hard to talk to either of them now. Well, I suppose you could talk with them, but they won't do much more than listen.

09-17-2017, 09:38 AM - 1 Like	#954
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Racer X 69 Kinda hard to talk to either of them now. Well, I suppose you could talk with them, but they won't do much more than listen. Are you saying you never have conversations with dead people? How weird is that?

09-17-2017, 09:58 AM - 2 Likes	#955
Racer X 69 Moderator Man With A Camera Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet, in the Land Between Canada and Mexico Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,073	Originally posted by normhead Are you saying you never have conversations with dead people? How weird is that? Well I talk to myself now and then. The only intelligent conversation I can find sometimes.

10-28-2017, 05:40 AM	#956
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by biz-engineer That's a good point. I can hardly see a 14bits ADC fitting into a 3um square. IMO, we are back to square one. DR talk is more for the sake of discussion, I believe. Anyone can bracket 5 shots with a K1 and fuse them with Enfuse, the DR is limited by the display medium. red latest product get 8K 60p and 17EV of dynamic range on top of 36MP stills. Sure the product is $79000 but this show that sensor with higher dynamic range are possible, as well as faster reads. As the rate technologies goes, we get that sooner than some might think in consumer products. We don't know what we be considered standard in a few years for consumer products in the same price range as a typical FF body today...

10-28-2017, 08:04 AM	#958
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,247	Originally posted by Nicolas06 red latest product get 8K 60p and 17EV of dynamic range It is a video cam. It is very easy to pull 17ev of dynamic range out of a 36Mp sensor down sampled to 8K, especially when the sensor is about 22x44mm large. There is an array of larger pixels interwoven with an array of smaller pixel both having different sensitivities, the two data set are merged after conversion. With regards to resolution it doesn't stack-up to still camera sensors. Originally posted by solitudebound A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns.

10-28-2017, 08:13 AM	#959
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	Originally posted by biz-engineer It is a video cam. It is very easy to pull 17ev of dynamic range out of a 36Mp sensor down sampled to 8K, especially when the sensor is about 22x44mm large. There is an array of larger pixels interwoven with an array of smaller pixel both having different sensitivities, the two data set are merged after conversion. With regards to resolution it doesn't stack-up to still camera sensors. That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns. Originally posted by biz-engineer Originally posted by solitudebound A D760 which probably would be just a D750 without an aa/low pass filter, same 24mpx FF sensor That doesn't work, there would be way too much moire patterns. Curious yet interesting.

10-28-2017, 09:27 AM	#960
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Dynamic range is the difference between the lowest level recorded and the most intense level recorded. Theoretically, I don't see how reducing the size of the image affects those metrics. So, I'm not buying it, until I see a theoretical explanation and images to show the difference is observable. Exactly how does reducing the size of the image either lower the lowest value recorded, or extend the highest value recorded. That is a function of the sensor not image size. I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. Saying if I reduce my image size from 7200 pixels to 1080 pixels increases my dynamic range to 17 EV of more, sounds like science fiction.