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07-04-2017, 01:24 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
But "research in progress" is identical to saying "we are looking into it" -- its a vague statement.
Anyway, you can already spend $10K on Pentax cameras and lenses, that's not what is missing. There is a sort of never happy people on the web who always want what is not available, complain about the new camera models, and actually don't buy much and some of them don't even take photographs. And that seems not related to Pentax in particular. One of the latest announcement is about the Canon 6DII and there are many more videos and people complaining about the 6DII then all the united Pentax complainer united. It is completely disconnected from the reality of taking photographs, all this thing happens in the vacuum of people minds.

07-04-2017, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Or it might be feeding confirmation bias.
I don't think the person who hired the people who worked at RIAC at the time works there now either, and I think those two suppositions are directly correlated. There is no 'there' there any more.
07-04-2017, 02:42 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm only jesting about the Japanese roundabout refusals, as well as their habit of not boasting. Please don't take it too seriously!

It's not that vague, if you pay attention. The trick is to keep in mind that they're not lying to you.
They do not lie by staying so vague. Anything you deduce from their vague statements is formed from confirmation bias.

Sigma, on the other hand, tend to make direct statements.. even the CEO. That's a breath of fresh air compared to the old style 'keep em guessing' approach of many other companies.
07-04-2017, 03:04 PM   #94
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If they're so vague, how come I can tell the difference?
It's confirmation bias all over; you think they're vague so it all seems so vague But more often than not, they're stating things clearly.

07-04-2017, 03:15 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If they're so vague, how come I can tell the difference?
You cannot.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's confirmation bias all over; you think they're vague so it all seems so vague But more often than not, they're stating things clearly.
You think they are stating things clearly because you are deducing what you what to read from their statements. It is ironic you are falling to the confirmation bias you are picking out of others.
07-04-2017, 03:36 PM   #96
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It is similar to reading Nostradamus quatrains and placing them to bits of history. Those same words could be placed to numerous settings because they're so vague -- anyone can deduce what they want out of them based on what they want to read.
07-04-2017, 04:42 PM   #97
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I'm sorry, mee, but your reasoning, in the line of "it's all so vague nobody could possibly tell the difference" it's a clear case of confirmation bias. You're not even interested in what I'm reading from their statements (you didn't ask - too late now, I'm afraid). You're not even considering the possibility that I might be right.
Another point where you're losing is using an invalid analogy. "It's similar to" means it's nothing like the actual subject, but supports your bias.

OTOH I'm not making unsupported claims, but speaking from experience (including, but not limited to reading those interviews). How many years, how many interviews I had to see how well I'm doing? I know what I read, and I know what I want to be true.
But it's pointless to try convince you. I only have a small hope that people who might benefit from it would start paying more attention to information coming from Ricoh Imaging, rather than assuming there's none.
07-04-2017, 05:36 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm sorry, mee, but your reasoning, in the line of "it's all so vague nobody could possibly tell the difference" it's a clear case of confirmation bias. You're not even interested in what I'm reading from their statements (you didn't ask - too late now, I'm afraid). You're not even considering the possibility that I might be right.
Another point where you're losing is using an invalid analogy. "It's similar to" means it's nothing like the actual subject, but supports your bias.

OTOH I'm not making unsupported claims, but speaking from experience (including, but not limited to reading those interviews). How many years, how many interviews I had to see how well I'm doing? I know what I read, and I know what I want to be true.
But it's pointless to try convince you. I only have a small hope that people who might benefit from it would start paying more attention to information coming from Ricoh Imaging, rather than assuming there's none.
I didn't ask because, frankly, there is nothing to explain.

Ricoh Imaging reps skirt around answering a question by providing a vague response so no conclusion can be made definitively outside of acknowledging the interviewer's question.

That is all there is.

It really is similar to Nostradamus quatrains. How many events have people over the years claimed he predicted? These tend to occur after the fact; in hindsight it is easy to claim accuracy.

But many of the predictions have been horribly wrong.. and they'll keep adjusting the time frame to meet the desired result. Or keep throwing up dates and places until one sticks.. throw enough darts at a board and eventually some will stick. Usually that's done through their own vague prediction of the prediction (for instance, "explosions in the middle east"). They are vague enough they can say 'ah ha! see, there were explosions in the middle east this year, Nostradamus was correct!' or they simply twist the quatrain to mean what they want it to mean when it has no direct correlation to the current event.

So Ricoh give a vague response to a question, a year or so later a product is a released and someone says 'ah ha! see, they released the ________ (product name) I was right!' when, in truth, anything Ricoh releases will be claimed as what that party predicted would be released.

It really is pointless to try to convince me, Alex. But if you seriously feel you know something the rest of us don't, I'm not trying to stop you. Only that I'm perfectly happy to wait and see what Ricoh release versus trying to deduce product releases between the lines of thoroughly vague Ricoh rep statements.

07-04-2017, 06:05 PM   #99
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I do enjoy making fun of Ricoh Imaging USA's marketing, but they have stepping it up since the launch of the K-1.

They are advertising in Photographer's Forum – Magazine for the Emerging Professional and Home | Professional Photographer Magazine

They are aiming at professionals with the K-1 and the 645z. They really, really, really need glass for both systems. Fuji will have 9 GFX lenses by this time next year. Ricoh doesn't seem to be able to do much better than one lens a year. The 645z is definitely do for a refresh.

Glad to see the still have the budget for a survey every couple of years. Will the actually listen?

---------- Post added 07-04-17 at 08:05 PM ----------

I do enjoy making fun of Ricoh Imaging USA's marketing, but they have stepping it up since the launch of the K-1.

They are advertising in Photographer's Forum – Magazine for the Emerging Professional and Home | Professional Photographer Magazine

They are aiming at professionals with the K-1 and the 645z. They really, really, really need glass for both systems. Fuji will have 9 GFX lenses by this time next year. Ricoh doesn't seem to be able to do much better than one lens a year. The 645z is definitely do for a refresh.

Glad to see the still have the budget for a survey every couple of years. Will the actually listen?
07-04-2017, 06:33 PM   #100
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You know, this works like politics, where a candidate perceives support among grassroot groups, not through polls, which are made for voters. I was giving some thought about this lately, and I was wondering why Pentax cameras are still popular in Europe and many other countries, that are not North America..it's because there are a lot of Pentax fan and support groups overseas where they really show love for their cameras, and proudly demonstrate to the world what they achieve with what they have? and Ricoh does not see a business opportunity within them?. Im sorry, but this is what I see and read over the net and print..
07-04-2017, 09:02 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The trick is to keep in mind that they're not lying to you.
That's a hard trick when they post a lens on a roadmap, but then make it disappear a few months later.
07-04-2017, 11:45 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
That's a hard trick when they post a lens on a roadmap, but then make it disappear a few months later.
Only if you see the roadmap as a firm commitment rather than a conditional statement of intent.

The Japanese apparently share with the (establishment) English a high regard for the subtle art form of potentially misleading without actually lying - if you are aware of the game, it can be quite amusing

One example - from politics, of course: "There is no evidence that ...(so and so)" often means "We (the government) are the only people in a position to collect that evidence, and we have chosen not to do so"

Last edited by ffking; 07-04-2017 at 11:54 PM.
07-05-2017, 12:11 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I didn't ask because, frankly, there is nothing to explain.

Ricoh Imaging reps skirt around answering a question by providing a vague response so no conclusion can be made definitively outside of acknowledging the interviewer's question.

That is all there is.

It really is similar to Nostradamus quatrains. How many events have people over the years claimed he predicted? These tend to occur after the fact; in hindsight it is easy to claim accuracy.

But many of the predictions have been horribly wrong.. and they'll keep adjusting the time frame to meet the desired result. Or keep throwing up dates and places until one sticks.. throw enough darts at a board and eventually some will stick. Usually that's done through their own vague prediction of the prediction (for instance, "explosions in the middle east"). They are vague enough they can say 'ah ha! see, there were explosions in the middle east this year, Nostradamus was correct!' or they simply twist the quatrain to mean what they want it to mean when it has no direct correlation to the current event.

So Ricoh give a vague response to a question, a year or so later a product is a released and someone says 'ah ha! see, they released the ________ (product name) I was right!' when, in truth, anything Ricoh releases will be claimed as what that party predicted would be released.

It really is pointless to try to convince me, Alex. But if you seriously feel you know something the rest of us don't, I'm not trying to stop you. Only that I'm perfectly happy to wait and see what Ricoh release versus trying to deduce product releases between the lines of thoroughly vague Ricoh rep statements.
You're not asking because you've made up a scenario in which you're "right" and you're sticking with it no matter what. No offense, but you're not interested in finding the truth, or in a relevant discussion... only in being "right".

Losing points again with the invalid analogy. Are you trying to convince me that you never even read those interviews?

That's the thing, while not giving information normally often seen in official announcements/press releases, their responses are often not vague, and on a very specific question. And where they are, you can learn something from that, too.
The best thing I've learned was the existence of the FF project, by the end of 2012 and restated a few times until officially announced. They said: "First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production." - is that vague?
DC Watch: Interview with Toshiyuki Kitazawa, Pentax's Head of Business Development - PentaxForums.com

FTR, I never claimed to be "trying to deduce product releases". I'm only saying I'm quite good at making the difference between yes and no.
I know it's pointless, I said so myself. This is for the benefit of people who might like to stay informed.

---------- Post added 05-07-17 at 10:14 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
That's a hard trick when they post a lens on a roadmap, but then make it disappear a few months later.
And when did that happen?

---------- Post added 05-07-17 at 10:25 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Only if you see the roadmap as a firm commitment rather than a conditional statement of intent.

The Japanese apparently share with the (establishment) English a high regard for the subtle art form of potentially misleading without actually lying - if you are aware of the game, it can be quite amusing

One example - from politics, of course: "There is no evidence that ...(so and so)" often means "We (the government) are the only people in a position to collect that evidence, and we have chosen not to do so"
I remember 2 lenses disappearing from the roadmap, under Hoya - a 30mm and a long lens. That's why I asked, "when" - because that leads to "why", which is Hoya cutting down on lens development.

Ricoh Imaging - unlike politicians - doesn't even try to mislead you; it's a much simpler game they're playing. They would reveal only what they want, and they would only say "no" in a roundabout way.
People expecting firm promises with product names and specs and dates will surely be disappointed.
07-05-2017, 04:55 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

I remember 2 lenses disappearing from the roadmap, under Hoya - a 30mm and a long lens. That's why I asked, "when" - because that leads to "why", which is Hoya cutting down on lens development.

(...)
Another example is the Pentax Q Telephoto Macro.

CP+ 2016:



CP+ 2017:

07-05-2017, 06:31 AM   #105
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Have you seen the "Roadmap might change without notice"?
Do you think a roadmap change is akin to lying?
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