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08-07-2017, 06:39 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
The lenses are suitable for the Q7/QS1 maximum.....1" is too big.
Oh that's too bad.

08-07-2017, 06:52 PM - 1 Like   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
There simply not enough people who care of that very specific setup. The big market for tiny sensor on dedicated camera are super zooms that achieve the same but with AF and a single lens.
The words at other photography forums provide a different image. Seldom do I hear someone say something like "I got a P900 because i wanted a one-lens solution" - those people typically end up with a mid-range LUMIX. People want an inexpensive source of "effectively very long" lenses; they often are disappointed by the IQ they get from the SX-60, and complain about the lack of raw from the P900.

However, this is all words now, signifying nothing. The Q family has left the market
08-07-2017, 11:40 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
Yep, in the early 1900's when 35mm film came out people's thoughts where usually "If it's not Large Format film, it's shit" or "If it's not Medium Format film, it's shit." which even now people think that (even in the Digifal world), even though Dslr cameras have been improved in quality the last few years.
Yep people that don't care use smartphones. People that care think Q not enough.

The problem isn't what people think is acceptable in one hundred years to sell today or what 1 person out of 10000 thousand think today. The problem isn't even if they are right of wrong. The problem is that they overall do act like that. Even if you think that arbitrary and all. This is like that.

Even if for many aspect a smartphone of today is bettere than a large format of 1900 in picture quality.
08-07-2017, 11:45 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The words at other photography forums provide a different image. Seldom do I hear someone say something like "I got a P900 because i wanted a one-lens solution" - those people typically end up with a mid-range LUMIX. People want an inexpensive source of "effectively very long" lenses; they often are disappointed by the IQ they get from the SX-60, and complain about the lack of raw from the P900.

However, this is all words now, signifying nothing. The Q family has left the market
People that buy this kind of things are not in photography forums. If you were to think people at photography forum are representative, you'd think half of the population has an FF DSLR or plan to get one and spend $2000-5000 in gear, every year, trying all the systems. You would think a good share of people while spending a lot on gear and discussing it all day mostly take pictures of brickwalls.

When you go outside seeing people, they have smartphones for most. Then comes compact cameras and bridge. Ony a few has DSLR or mirrorless and when they have one, this is most often the kit lens. This make most of the sales. Even among DSLRs, I remember reading a stat saying that more than half people would never buy a lens outside the kit lens bundled with the camera...

Photography forum are for gear heads. Normal people can't justify spending more than $500 for a full camera system, and not more often than every 5-10 years.

Interrestingly if you look at shops, it reflect that. If it was selling so well, sellers would have it everywhere.

At some point I needed a whetstone for a knife. That when I discovered that there were forums dedicated to that, people discussing all kind of whetstone you could buy, comparing then for days, people explaining that they where sharpening their knifes every evening while looking at TV and that it was impossible to use a knife without hurting yourself or cooking something acceptable if you knife was not freshly sharpened.. Forums of enthousiasts on a given topic are anything but representative on how the overall population act. And there lot of funny things inside too.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 08-07-2017 at 11:55 PM.
08-08-2017, 12:10 AM - 2 Likes   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
At some point I needed a whetstone for a knife. That when I discovered that there were forums dedicated to that, people discussing all kind of whetstone you could buy, comparing then for days, people explaining that they where sharpening their knifes every evening while looking at TV and that it was impossible to use a knife without hurting yourself or cooking something acceptable if you knife was not freshly sharpened.. Forums of enthousiasts on a given topic are anything but representative on how the overall population act. And there lot of funny things inside too.
Well, you can use a cropped whetstone if you want to but you have to undestand that your steaks won't taste as good. I mean, they'll be fine and ok to an unrefined palate but a pro chef would be able to tell the difference right away.
08-08-2017, 02:51 AM - 1 Like   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
People that buy this kind of things are not in photography forums. If you were to think people at photography forum are representative, you'd think half of the population has an FF DSLR or plan to get one and spend $2000-5000 in gear, every year, trying all the systems. You would think a good share of people while spending a lot on gear and discussing it all day mostly take pictures of brickwalls.

When you go outside seeing people, they have smartphones for most. Then comes compact cameras and bridge. Ony a few has DSLR or mirrorless and when they have one, this is most often the kit lens. This make most of the sales. Even among DSLRs, I remember reading a stat saying that more than half people would never buy a lens outside the kit lens bundled with the camera...

Photography forum are for gear heads. Normal people can't justify spending more than $500 for a full camera system, and not more often than every 5-10 years.

Interrestingly if you look at shops, it reflect that. If it was selling so well, sellers would have it everywhere.

At some point I needed a whetstone for a knife. That when I discovered that there were forums dedicated to that, people discussing all kind of whetstone you could buy, comparing then for days, people explaining that they where sharpening their knifes every evening while looking at TV and that it was impossible to use a knife without hurting yourself or cooking something acceptable if you knife was not freshly sharpened.. Forums of enthousiasts on a given topic are anything but representative on how the overall population act. And there lot of funny things inside too.
We are going far afield, but most people who buy a separate camera from their phone want to see images that their phone couldn't have taken. But if you are shooting with a kit lens on an entry level camera with out of camera jpegs, you may or may not actually be able to see a difference. In fact, you may feel that your photos look a little soft with your ILC versus your phone because you don't have good technique or you aren't stopped down enough.

The folks on the forum don't necessarily buy a bunch of new stuff -- we aren't all independently wealthy -- but we are interested in improving our photographic skills and technique and hopefully getting better images as a result, even if we are still using cameras that are getting pretty old. Most people would do better to learn to use their gear better than to sink money into new top end gear.
08-08-2017, 07:20 AM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
We are going far afield, but most people who buy a separate camera from their phone want to see images that their phone couldn't have taken. But if you are shooting with a kit lens on an entry level camera with out of camera jpegs, you may or may not actually be able to see a difference. In fact, you may feel that your photos look a little soft with your ILC versus your phone because you don't have good technique or you aren't stopped down enough.

The folks on the forum don't necessarily buy a bunch of new stuff -- we aren't all independently wealthy -- but we are interested in improving our photographic skills and technique and hopefully getting better images as a result, even if we are still using cameras that are getting pretty old. Most people would do better to learn to use their gear better than to sink money into new top end gear.
Many times I've taken pics with my GR or Pentax DSLR at family gatherings, sporting events, events, etc., and then shared them with other people also in attendance.

Universally, my photos trump their smartphone output, and I get requests for copies of the image, and requests for advice on how to buy a better camera. And these are iPhone 7 users, so at the higher end of the smartphone range.

The learning curve of a dedicated camera is the barrier, however.
08-08-2017, 12:14 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
People that buy this kind of things are not in photography forums.
Actually, the only people I've personally heard discuss purchasing an SX-50, SX-60 or P900 were at another photography discussion forum, where they were using super-zooms at the long end to get cool images beyond anything I could hope to do. In fact, the images posted by several of them are what convinced me to think in terms of getting a Q-7 for me, because their images were better than what I was getting with my Rebel, and like them, this gave me a birding solution that fit into my budget.

---------- Post added 08-08-17 at 03:17 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The learning curve of a dedicated camera is the barrier, however.
That is where the Q-7 stands out. It's User Interface is virtually the same as the UI on my K-30.



QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
However, this is all words now, signifying nothing. The Q family has left the market



Last edited by reh321; 08-08-2017 at 12:20 PM.
08-10-2017, 06:28 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
People that buy this kind of things are not in photography forums. If you were to think people at photography forum are representative, you'd think half of the population has an FF DSLR or plan to get one and spend $2000-5000 in gear, every year, trying all the systems. You would think a good share of people while spending a lot on gear and discussing it all day mostly take pictures of brickwalls.

When you go outside seeing people, they have smartphones for most. Then comes compact cameras and bridge. Ony a few has DSLR or mirrorless and when they have one, this is most often the kit lens. This make most of the sales. Even among DSLRs, I remember reading a stat saying that more than half people would never buy a lens outside the kit lens bundled with the camera...

Photography forum are for gear heads. Normal people can't justify spending more than $500 for a full camera system, and not more often than every 5-10 years.

Interrestingly if you look at shops, it reflect that. If it was selling so well, sellers would have it everywhere.

At some point I needed a whetstone for a knife. That when I discovered that there were forums dedicated to that, people discussing all kind of whetstone you could buy, comparing then for days, people explaining that they where sharpening their knifes every evening while looking at TV and that it was impossible to use a knife without hurting yourself or cooking something acceptable if you knife was not freshly sharpened.. Forums of enthousiasts on a given topic are anything but representative on how the overall population act. And there lot of funny things inside too.
"Normal people can't justify spending"

I am normal, I shoot a Pentax or two with a bunch of lens. When serious (deep pocket) photographers see my gear they scratch their heads and ask, Pentax, Pentax is still selling cameras? All while holding their huge white camera and lens. This does make me feel not normal. And yes it really happens all the time.

But since I know we all (on this site) use Pentax cameras, I come here to feel normal.
08-10-2017, 07:08 PM - 1 Like   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Ony a few has DSLR or mirrorless and when they have one, this is most often the kit lens. This make most of the sales. Even among DSLRs, I remember reading a stat saying that more than half people would never buy a lens outside the kit lens bundled with the camera...
You were right , but I believe that has changed a lot in the last 5 years.
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Photography forum are for gear heads. Normal people can't justify spending more than $500 for a full camera system, and not more often than every 5-10 years.
The ILC market is not the same now vs what it was 5 years ago.

Ten years ago, a lot of people who could not afford a DSLR were using a compact camera. People who could afford a DSLR were using a DSLR starting with a kit lens and upgrading to a set of lenses.
Five year ago, a lot of people had a DSLR for taking photos, among them were people new to DSLR buying the kit lens only influenced by the good photos they were seeing from the others having a set of interchangeable lenses eventually with primes (thinking... if I buy a DSLR, I'll be able to take photos as good as thos other guy).
Now, the majority of people who were using a DSLR with kit lens only have left it home or sold it and they use their smart phone. And among the "category of people" (not necessarily the same people) who were using still using a camera and a set of lenses, a number of them still use a DSLR with a set of lenses, and the rest switched to mirrorless for the reduced size.

Today, if you take photos only with a smartphone, you are most likely a dropout of the cheapo DSLR bandwagon, or you had a compact camera before, or you are young and your first camera was a phone.
If you take photos with a Fuji X, Sony, or Olympus u43 mirrorless, you are most likely a dropout from Canon ILC who go bored to carry bulky cameras.
If you take photos with a full frame DSLR and ILC, you are most likely someone who don't mind much about camera size and who is passionate enough by photography to have upgraded from an apsc DSLR.

That the way I see pretty much all people around me over the last decade.
08-10-2017, 07:23 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
"Normal people can't justify spending"

I am normal, I shoot a Pentax or two with a bunch of lens. When serious (deep pocket) photographers see my gear they scratch their heads and ask, Pentax, Pentax is still selling cameras? All while holding their huge white camera and lens. This does make me feel not normal. And yes it really happens all the time.

But since I know we all (on this site) use Pentax cameras, I come here to feel normal.
One of my main interests is that people view me as "normal", i.e., not as a photographer, because my style of photography depends on my subjects not reacting to my presence. I want images to look as they would if I were not present - and I believe my blue K-30 contributes to my amateur credentials.

---------- Post added 08-10-17 at 10:31 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Photography forum are for gear heads. Normal people can't justify spending more than $500 for a full camera system, and not more often than every 5-10 years.
I guess that I am normal, then, that I wandered in here by accident. The most I've ever spent for a camera kit was the $700 Canon EOS Elan kit I purchased in 1995. If a body lasts me less than 4 years, I consider it to have been a "failure" {my K-30 is now 27 months old, if it comes down with the aperture ailment in the next 21 months, that alone would not count as a "failure", because I already have the manual lenses I would need to "operate on 7 cylinders" until it does reach the four year mark.

Last edited by reh321; 08-10-2017 at 07:34 PM.
08-12-2017, 04:40 AM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
"Normal people can't justify spending"
If so, why do people throw out more than 500 bucks for a smartphone? (most of those "normal" people do that once a year)
Reading all whats written in here, I have a strong feeling most people on PF play the underdog-card too often...

Actually the results are good compared to what goes on on the market, and i dont have any clue, why PF-members care about the financial results if they arent stakeholders with voting rights.


About white lenses: actually Canons (and Nikons-- seldom white) are not more expensive than pentax gear, if you look at the pricings of comparable products
(just dont play the WR or SR card ... C and N have implemented all that but just in another way and the higher priced gear is WR but not signed but it will hold against what a pentax holds)
Just compare...
Speaking for myself: I am stuck to the glass i already have.. and actually i liked the brand for its handling (until the K-1 and KP came up with those wheels n stuff, instead of core-improvements)


Speaking for myself, I would and i could spend money on new gear, but where are the improvements?
Where is 4K? where is bigger buffer? Where is better AF? Why such high resolutions on relatively small sensors?

I would be willing to spend money on that, but not on bells and whistles.
08-12-2017, 05:52 AM - 3 Likes   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
If so, why do people throw out more than 500 bucks for a smartphone? (most of those "normal" people do that once a year)
Reading all whats written in here, I have a strong feeling most people on PF play the underdog-card too often...

Actually the results are good compared to what goes on on the market, and i dont have any clue, why PF-members care about the financial results if they arent stakeholders with voting rights.


About white lenses: actually Canons (and Nikons-- seldom white) are not more expensive than pentax gear, if you look at the pricings of comparable products
(just dont play the WR or SR card ... C and N have implemented all that but just in another way and the higher priced gear is WR but not signed but it will hold against what a pentax holds)
Just compare...
Speaking for myself: I am stuck to the glass i already have.. and actually i liked the brand for its handling (until the K-1 and KP came up with those wheels n stuff, instead of core-improvements)


Speaking for myself, I would and i could spend money on new gear, but where are the improvements?
Where is 4K? where is bigger buffer? Where is better AF? Why such high resolutions on relatively small sensors?

I would be willing to spend money on that, but not on bells and whistles.
I don't know many "normal" people who get a new smart phone every year (I usually get one every two and a half to three years). Beyond which, a smart phone is a computer that happens to have a built in camera. It isn't a camera. People may view it as a business expense -- necessary item for their lives and therefore spend a little more on it. Seems as though they don't see cameras in the same light.

As far as buffer size goes, Pentax cameras have better buffers at their price points than do Canon and Nikon cameras. Auto focus could be better. 4K is, once again, not present at same price points on Canon/Nikon cameras. There are actually few APS-C and full frame cameras that have implemented 4K video and they are all relatively new.

The K-1 is a very nice package. To pretend that the only thing added was an additional control wheel is foolish. It has one of the nicest sensors out there right now for still photography -- a sensor that compares very well to the sensor in the D810 and A7r II (see DXO Mark graphs). It adds features like pixel shift and astro tracer. Auto focus is decent for everything but sports. Buffer is decent but clears slowly due to the use of SD cards.

The biggest issue with the K-1 has nothing to do with what it is, it has to do with how it is marketed.

Last edited by Rondec; 08-12-2017 at 06:01 AM.
08-12-2017, 07:25 AM - 2 Likes   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
If so, why do people throw out more than 500 bucks for a smartphone? (most of those "normal" people do that once a year)
Reading all whats written in here, I have a strong feeling most people on PF play the underdog-card too often...

Actually the results are good compared to what goes on on the market, and i dont have any clue, why PF-members care about the financial results if they arent stakeholders with voting rights.

So many people throw out 500 bucks for a smart phone once a year because the service provider lets them pay for the phone on credit, so its easy for them to get a new smart phone yearly. Also all the hype about new I phones create a want in people, advertising and hype work. If not for that fact not many users would not be wasting money yearly.


PF-members care about the financial results because they are in fact stakeholders because we are "invested" in the K-mount system and want the brand to survive and thrive.
08-12-2017, 09:32 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
But since I know we all (on this site) use Pentax cameras, I come here to feel normal.
I come here to discover there are other weird Pentaxians like myself.
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