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08-29-2017, 08:27 AM   #406
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How about space? Space constraints, after all, are precisely what's preventing a smartphone to reach a K-1-level performance.
The L16 has 16 camera modules, each consisting in both optics and sensor. It's pretty packed - check Light | Camera - and to downsize all that to fit a smartphone? Then to further evolve the technology to "do everything better" than a K-1? (which is the claim I reacted to)

A module that attached to a smartphone is not a smartphone, by the way - but even so, a compact form factor module won't be able to "do everything better" than a K-1 anytime soon.

08-29-2017, 08:37 AM   #407
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As Kunzite says, not sure that that fits the bill. 16 sensors in a 1700 dollar camera that gives a lot of megapixels in good light situation. I think the question is how close are we to quantum efficiency with a single (tiny) sensor and how much can be added with regard to resolution, dynamic range and high iso performance.

At certain point you get diminishing returns. The K3 has a little more resolution than the K5, but it isn't as much as you would think and it is mostly evident in lower iso situations.

Beyond which, Monochrome mentioned the biggest issue with cell phone cameras, which is that they are terrible ergonomically. Holding them steady, figuring out how to mount them on a tripod -- all of the things that have been solved for years and years with ILCs -- are still quite difficult with cell phone cams.

They are still good enough for most folks, for what it's worth.
08-29-2017, 10:16 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How about space? Space constraints, after all, are precisely what's preventing a smartphone to reach a K-1-level performance.
The L16 has 16 camera modules, each consisting in both optics and sensor. It's pretty packed - check Light | Camera - and to downsize all that to fit a smartphone? Then to further evolve the technology to "do everything better" than a K-1? (which is the claim I reacted to)

A module that attached to a smartphone is not a smartphone, by the way - but even so, a compact form factor module won't be able to "do everything better" than a K-1 anytime soon.
That's the first iteration of the technology. Like all tech, it's going to get smaller, cheaper, and faster in the next 10 years.

Alternately, let's look back 10 years - how close are smartphone cameras today to the top-tier Pentax from 2007, the K10d?

My 2016 Galaxy S7 has:
  1. more megapickles
  2. a larger/higher resolution touchscreen display
  3. more AF points, more AF modes (face, smile, tracking), faster AF (phase detect)
  4. GPS tagging
  5. 4k video
  6. HDR, panorama, hyperlapse, and other shooting modes
  7. RAW shooting
  8. RAW processing support using apps like Snapseed
  9. Micro SD card support
  10. Integration with cloud storage
  11. makes phone calls

The K10d has:
  1. marginally better low light performance but only when a fast lens is used (the S7 is an optically stabilized 26mm F1.7).
  2. lens selection

I'd love to have a phone in 2027 that approached the K-1 image quality. What photographer would not want that level of quality in their pocket at all times?
08-29-2017, 10:33 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
That's the first iteration of the technology. Like all tech, it's going to get smaller, cheaper, and faster in the next 10 years.

Alternately, let's look back 10 years - how close are smartphone cameras today to the top-tier Pentax from 2007, the K10d?

My 2016 Galaxy S7 has:
  1. more megapickles
  2. a larger/higher resolution touchscreen display
  3. more AF points, more AF modes (face, smile, tracking), faster AF (phase detect)
  4. GPS tagging
  5. 4k video
  6. HDR, panorama, hyperlapse, and other shooting modes
  7. RAW shooting
  8. RAW processing support using apps like Snapseed
  9. Micro SD card support
  10. Integration with cloud storage
  11. makes phone calls

The K10d has:
  1. marginally better low light performance but only when a fast lens is used (the S7 is an optically stabilized 26mm F1.7).
  2. lens selection

I'd love to have a phone in 2027 that approached the K-1 image quality. What photographer would not want that level of quality in their pocket at all times?
My experience with RAW files from phone sensors is that you have a hard time making them better than out of phone jpegs. There are just enough adjustments baked into the jpegs that you can't really do better -- at least not without a serious investment of time. As far as improvements, who knows what the future holds? But whatever you can do with phone sized sensors, you can do with larger sensors as well. I would hope that if there is still a k mount pentax in 2027, that it will still be a little better than the phone cameras available at that point.

08-29-2017, 10:33 AM   #410
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It's not the first - Lytro's first camera was launched in 2012 (of course, the L16 is using a different approach - but so would a "smartphone integrated" version).
The K10D is definitely limited by its old CCD sensor, while the Galaxy S7 is using every hardware and software trick available. Coincidentally, there's about 10 years between them, and the S7 cannot "do everything better" than the K10D.

But if "makes phone calls" is how you plan to prove that a future smartphone would be a better camera than a K-1, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
08-29-2017, 11:15 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's not the first - Lytro's first camera was launched in 2012 (of course, the L16 is using a different approach - but so would a "smartphone integrated" version).
The K10D is definitely limited by its old CCD sensor, while the Galaxy S7 is using every hardware and software trick available. Coincidentally, there's about 10 years between them, and the S7 cannot "do everything better" than the K10D.
Lytro, with a single lens and sensor, was a completely different approach that produced low resolution images that you could change DOF with. L16 is something different altogether, producing high resolution images and zoomability with it's array of cameras, and is, as far as I know, the first consumer application of this type of multi-camera computational photography beyond 360 VR applications like the Theta. I'm very curious to see how this approach evolves in the next ten years.

I never said that the S7 can do everything better than the K10D but it can certainly do things that the K10D could only dream of doing. That's what ten years of progress brings. The S7, with it's 26mm lens, is pretty bad at portraits, for example. For that application, I'd much rather have a K10D with a 50mm prime. But if in 10 years time there's a phone that can take a portrait that rivals a K-1 with an 85mm F1.4, I'll be the first in line. I want the result and will use whatever tools that get me there.

QuoteQuote:
But if "makes phone calls" is how you plan to prove that a future smartphone would be a better camera than a K-1, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
That was a joke.
08-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
It is better to have the actual real average that is good statistic indicator if not perfect than the nothingness you provide as backup for your reasoning.
I see, you need shorter posts so u understand my point, instead of calling it a "nothingness"... LOL
AFAIK the business numbers all this is about are international and not only business numbers from 1st world countries.

and so maybe its better to only read the following 2 paragraphs.

Take the fr34kin average of WHOLE India or China, and talk again.
... hold back your nukes... just take your time and think about it.... this is no offense but more a tip on your shoulder.

So if something is saying nothing, it is the average of the whole. the result of this means ZIP to business reality.
You will have to accept there are also people who can and do effort themselves a new smartphone every year if not even twice or 3 times a year.

If you have the average of a certain income-bracket, come back and talk again;
thats a whole other thing, especially if you can verify it with acknowledged sources.


Take 3 smartphones with classy cameras...
Google Pixel 32GB -- app. 600 bucks
Iphone 7 Plus -- app. 800 bucks
LG G6 -- 400 to 500 bucks

thats 1900 Dollars... if you can delight someone about photography he/she for sure will spend only 100 dollars on a smartphone that he/she will most likely keep for more than 2 years and invest the rest of a whopping 1800 Dollars in good camera gear.

now here is the hook:
you invest 1000Dollars in a brand new PENTAX KP...
and put 800bucks on a lens as equivalent fast as the lens in a top tier smartphone -- lets say some limited 31mm ltd. or 15mm - maybe you get rebate and buy a bag.

what do you get:
Pentax KP nice... flippy screen. but can i shoot 10 pictures per second like my old iPhone could? ...nope
can it do cool and smooth 4k videos like my G6 can ...nope
is it capable of recording full HD videos at real 120fps like my Google Pixel does? nope...
can i forward every photo i shot and upload it without a hassle directly to a FTP-server, cloud, flickr, ig, fb, etc? ...nope.
can you hook it up to your screen and use its massive CPU-power to edit the photos and save them, mail them ? =)
the lens- cool street photos? you want to stay "undercover" whilst shootin since you have a flippy screen.. what...?
silent? sssst...*drill* sssst......"Sorry i cant hear you the AF-drive is too loud!" lol

OK, ok you have ISO "tenthousandwhatsoever" but what kind of person is having fun doing photography in near 100% darkness?

Yes of course, i am overdoin it a bit and it really sounds like i would love to behave bad in here on PF. I also feel that a bit, but all i wrote above is no bad campaign to the brand, its just the truth. sad enough.

nobody who loves photography and:

a) is quite sane and informs himself a bit about features...
b) is happy with a fixed focal length
c) has no lens legacy from father and or grand father in his closet

would go and start buyin into pentax or even canon(6d mark ii .... LOL... ROFL) dslr system at the moment.
that is something i totally and 100% agree to. if you also wanted to state that ...

You can draw people into the photography-machinery with the myth... but you cant hold em inside if you dont deliver contemporary and good features.

That was what it was all about. I feel you overreact a bit and maybe misunderstood, what i wanted to state. but its ok.

Nonetheless, I stay with my oppinion:
If dedicated cameras at least offer the features that top-tier smartphones deliver, than they will get sold.


Otherwise chances may be very poor.
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08-29-2017, 12:23 PM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Lytro, with a single lens and sensor, was a completely different approach that produced low resolution images that you could change DOF with. L16 is something different altogether, producing high resolution images and zoomability with it's array of cameras, and is, as far as I know, the first consumer application of this type of multi-camera computational photography beyond 360 VR applications like the Theta. I'm very curious to see how this approach evolves in the next ten years.

I never said that the S7 can do everything better than the K10D but it can certainly do things that the K10D could only dream of doing. That's what ten years of progress brings. The S7, with it's 26mm lens, is pretty bad at portraits, for example. For that application, I'd much rather have a K10D with a 50mm prime. But if in 10 years time there's a phone that can take a portrait that rivals a K-1 with an 85mm F1.4, I'll be the first in line. I want the result and will use whatever tools that get me there..
They're both plenoptic cameras - a concept that is more than a century old. And as I said, you can't fit 16 camera modules into a smartphone.

What I responded to - and the discussion which you joined - was about this very specific claim:
"It could be very well that in 10 years, the next product that will be successor of a smartphone will do everything better than a K1 even with high end lenses bundled to it and keep a small form factor and do that for 300."

I'm afraid you're changing the goalposts, with Lytro (a dedicated plenoptic camera), by switching from a K-1 to a K10D, by switching to non-image quality-related features like GPS, mobile connectivity, etc. Trouble is, that's somewhat annoying because it prevents me from properly making my point, and reaching a consensus.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
That was a joke.
I hope the entire list of 'pros' for the S7 was a joke, then. Well, at least you said megapickles...

08-29-2017, 02:56 PM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
Nonetheless, I stay with my oppinion:
If dedicated cameras at least offer the features that top-tier smartphones deliver, than they will get sold.


Otherwise chances may be very poor.
They're catering to different markets. Almost no-one who buys a DSLR expects to have it "deliver" what a smartphone delivers. Almost no-one who owns a smartphone, expects it to shoot professional looking perfect images. Most are shooting 1,000,000 selfies and cats and posting to twit-insta-book or whatever.

I don't expect my 4x4 to be good at Formula 1. I need it to drive through 4 feet of water and over boulders and through snow and mud without getting so stuck that I can't unstuck it. I suspect most DSLR buyers don't need nor want to have phone features - especially if the price will increase in order to have those superfluous features.
08-29-2017, 03:05 PM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I hope the entire list of 'pros' for the S7 was a joke, then. Well, at least you said megapickles...
When a phone shoots better 4k video than any Pentax camera, that's a joke.
08-29-2017, 03:10 PM - 1 Like   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
They're catering to different markets. Almost no-one who buys a DSLR expects to have it "deliver" what a smartphone delivers. Almost no-one who owns a smartphone, expects it to shoot professional looking perfect images. Most are shooting 1,000,000 selfies and cats and posting to twit-insta-book or whatever.

I don't expect my 4x4 to be good at Formula 1. I need it to drive through 4 feet of water and over boulders and through snow and mud without getting so stuck that I can't unstuck it. I suspect most DSLR buyers don't need nor want to have phone features - especially if the price will increase in order to have those superfluous features.
They're not superfluous if you want them, though. We've been conditioned to expect or not to expect features but often they aren't written in stone. If a smartphone delivered professional looking perfect images, I'd probably buy it tomorrow though I'd still keep my camera. Anyway, I imagine the battlefield for all this is Asia. That's by far the largest market for cameras and the most in love with gadgetry and all things modern, hence probably the popularity of mirrorless cameras there. What pans out in Asia will be served up reheated in the West not long afterwards, I would guess. We're not the main course anymore.

Last edited by mecrox; 08-29-2017 at 03:23 PM.
08-29-2017, 03:23 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
When a phone shoots better 4k video than any Pentax camera, that's a joke.
I neither want my DSLR to shoot 4K video nor do I want to pay for it.

Looking at your list, I'm not sure I need all those in a DSLR.
  1. more megapickles K1 megapickles would be nice
  2. a larger/higher resolution touchscreen display Don't need it or want it.
  3. more AF points, more AF modes (face, smile, tracking), faster AF (phase detect) Would be nice in a DSLR
  4. GPS tagging Don't need it or want it.
  5. 4k video Don't need it or want it.
  6. HDR, panorama, hyperlapse, and other shooting modes Panorama would be nice.
  7. RAW shooting We have that.
  8. RAW processing support using apps like Snapseed Camera seems to do jpg conversion perfectly well if I need it to.
  9. Micro SD card support Camera has that now.
  10. Integration with cloud storage Could be nice.
  11. makes phone calls Hell no!

Last edited by MarkJerling; 08-29-2017 at 03:35 PM.
08-29-2017, 03:26 PM - 1 Like   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
We're not the main course anymore.
You're most probably correct. Although, mirrorless sales seem flat. And then, just the other day, my daughter who shoots with nothing but her phone expressed an interest in one of my film cameras. Next she'll be buying records like her dad!
08-29-2017, 04:22 PM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
They're catering to different markets. Almost no-one who buys a DSLR expects to have it "deliver" what a smartphone delivers. Almost no-one who owns a smartphone, expects it to shoot professional looking perfect images. Most are shooting 1,000,000 selfies and cats and posting to twit-insta-book or whatever.

I don't expect my 4x4 to be good at Formula 1. I need it to drive through 4 feet of water and over boulders and through snow and mud without getting so stuck that I can't unstuck it. I suspect most DSLR buyers don't need nor want to have phone features - especially if the price will increase in order to have those superfluous features.
yea. somehow you are right, we all know we wont change "shaped oppinions".
And most people will never use what they get offered, thats obvious.
But most people I know, when they go on the hunt for tech, they look at the specification-lists of some products on some comparison platform on the net, compare and pick.

Thing is.. if i have a bit a heart for photography and no pentax lenses in my cellar, and i want a machine thats a bit more pro, and look at the features of
PENTAX,
most CANONS
and most Nikons, i wouldnt buy into those systems prosumer thingies. Not even if i could wash my face with 1000 dollar notes...
i would either go total pro. what means a D850 or D5, a Canon 1DX II, a 5D Mark IV, a Sony A9 or a Sony A99(I or II)...
but its rather likely that i would have fun with a Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX8 ...
thats a cam you can have for 700-1000 bucks brand new and used for a bargain.
also loads of weather sealed lenses available for that system, used a bit cheaper.
...

maybe i am a total misfit or crank if you wish so, but my phone for instance is an LG flipphone... i shelled out amazing 100 bucks for it. it has no good camera, instead i carry around a RICOH R1 analog 135 film camera(yes thats full frame :P ) in my pocket.
and ha. ya know what?
i can change the batteries of both devices without even thinking about a screwdriver or knowing how to spell "prying tool"...

I used to have a K-3 for a short time, but lookin at what the K-3 brought at its core(despite gimmickry like PS, and ya what exactly...else?)I sold it and use low-level K-mount bodies that fly around on ebay for a 100 bucks ... (they are all good at ISO 100-400 in the studio...) and if i feel like using big glass makes sense. when i need it I borrow a K-1.
(the glass is already there- big good speedy FF sigma glass with excellent AF-drive nearly "en par" to Nikons or Canons big whoppers)

so for me goes the same ...like for the most people... until there is a body that signifcantly betters PENTAX DSLRs AF-system, and offers features that one would call contemporary, i will stay mean 'n' clean, and desist from shelling out more than a whoppin 1000bucks for "yesterday-tech", that doesnt know where to focus when a cyclist already fills out a fourth of the whole frame and slowly comes closer....
LOL

not Achance.

my K-30 nearly shot 8fps costed me the equivalent of two 24pack flying cauldron butterscotch beer, so what.
not in the mood for an upgrade

pretty sure more people keep it the same at the moment. but who knows.
I would have bought a K-1 if it had offered the same core-specs as the D850 ...except for one- a 24Megapixel Sensor
... but all i see now thats titled new in Pentaxland:
36MP ff,
retro-looking body,
lifting prices...

I already saw all that 5 years ago from some other maker...
its deliver or quiver.
saying "people are people" wont help.

thats all those business numbers tell me, and Ricoh leadership should see it the same way. Still my oppinion;
Though i respect everyone elses...
I mean if you are satisfied with what is served to you, then you are satisfied. No discussion about that.
08-29-2017, 04:59 PM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I neither want my DSLR to shoot 4K video nor do I want to pay for it.
I'm pulling 8 megapickle stills from 4k video and they are high enough quality for published 2 page spreads:


In the Tire Tracks of a Pioneer
by John Flores, on Flickr

6k video yields 18 megapickle stills. So even if you don't shoot video 4k and higher video is great for capturing action.


4K Photo mode of GX85 is great for baseball
by John Flores, on Flickr

I'll never buy another camera without 4k video.
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