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07-28-2017, 04:29 PM   #31
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igor123 Quote
I'd guess KP using up lots of resources, while not selling well to either APSC flagship-people nor entry level...k70 seems great for the price but probably low margin, and then few lenses on top of that and with the initial k1 rush fading...it all adds up. But makes you wonder about what the plan was...sure, the superprimes are needed for the system to be well regarded, but with the expected prices and especially time to release and time in between them, they won't be cashcows I'd guess, and perhaps to far apart to have any shock-and-awe effect of pentax glass on the market.

Yes.. K-1 is yesterdays news... actually last years news. Without a fairly continuous lineup of lenses launching for it, it fades from the forefront. I think perhaps that is the only way to keep interest in the market on your camera, launch lenses+accessories for it. But Ricoh has not done that in over a year now.

Even if they do launch the 50 soon they had a pretty long gap of nothingness to allow the whole system to fade from people's minds.. they let off the gas pedal and momentum... at least from the customer's point of view. They may very well be scrambling to launch the new lenses but we don't see that... all we see is a roadmap and a printed lens mockup for a year. And now with new products from competitors coming out, it further gets forgotten, despite how functional the K-1 still is and will be for years.

That really is the biggest mistake Ricoh Imaging has had thus far.. not keeping new products continually coming into the market.. that pause is deafening to some.

Let me explain my thoughts a little further, since no one asks and most people assume (and for the worst at that) what someone else meant. I don't think the K-1 or Pentax are going away or will be discontinued anytime soon. I still think we see the new lenses slowly come out.. the main point I'm making here is they lost momentum for their FF system by essentially taking a year off releasing new products for it when there are still sizable gaps in the lineup (that are filled on the roadmap).

So one looks at the system as a whole and says 'Has what I need' or 'I think I can make that work' or 'Missing something(s)'. I'm suggesting also those in the 'Missing something(s)' group are larger than the 'Has what I need' and to keep this system alive they have to sell to that group. 'Has what I need' already got what they needed... It is the 'I think I can make that work' and 'Missing something(s)' where the money still lies. The people trying to make it work and are starting to look at other systems and those on the fence, with buying the K-1, might be as well. But they are still in need of one of those lenses not yet there. The silence isn't helping this!

07-28-2017, 05:12 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sun is still shining, camera will be working, honestly there is nothing we can do and we don't really know much anyway so why worry. It's interesting chitchat but hardly very important
I have a ridiculous collection of cameras and lenses. They all work. And I don't care about potentially having them orphaned and losing value since I'm not selling (unlike a member who has had a massive lens / camera list for sale since March)
07-28-2017, 08:12 PM - 3 Likes   #33
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I think the problem they have at the moment is a complete lack of any mainstream camera for the average customer. Imagine a customer goes into a shop with a full selection of cameras from all brands. They are smart enough to know that a dedicated camera will give them better pictures from their upcoming holiday than a smartphone, but they are by no means an enthusiast. They can find a huge number of general use cameras from other vendors, but nothing suitable from Ricoh in this past year.

Looking at what Ricoh is offering, the smaller cameras are all distinctly niche (GR, Theta, WG) and the next step up is the K-70 with 18-135 kit lens. That latter kit is about 1kg and costs 95,000 yen - it's still an enthusiast camera, with a lot of direct control, which could be potentially off-putting to a customers who value simplicity. Anything in-between has become unavailable - Q, MX-1, small K-mount). I think it's little wonder their sales are suffering if they are ignoring the average consumer.

I feel like this forum is a bit of an echo chamber of people who like large, feature-rich DSLR cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but it's true, I think. The K-1 is certainly well received here, but I'm not sure how statistically significant we are to Ricoh's fortunes. It's also a very packed market segment - so many competitors for the enthusiast who has $2,000 to spend on a camera. The upcoming FF lenses are not going to help Ricoh much, in my opinion. I personally think that FF has been a distraction from strengthening APS-C and 645, where they at least had a chance of building a complete system. Ironically, affordable 645 is now a "thing", but Ricoh seems to have the whole line on hold. What is really needed is something that has some more mass appeal, even if it only sells well in Asia.

Anyway, I'm kind of concerned by this latest report, but I can't help but feel that Ricoh is going to do something to fill that huge void below the K-70 with something interesting soon.
07-28-2017, 10:21 PM - 1 Like   #34
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07-29-2017, 12:19 AM - 2 Likes   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think the problem they have at the moment is a complete lack of any mainstream camera for the average customer. Imagine a customer goes into a shop with a full selection of cameras from all brands. They are smart enough to know that a dedicated camera will give them better pictures from their upcoming holiday than a smartphone, but they are by no means an enthusiast. They can find a huge number of general use cameras from other vendors, but nothing suitable from Ricoh in this past year.

Looking at what Ricoh is offering, the smaller cameras are all distinctly niche (GR, Theta, WG) and the next step up is the K-70 with 18-135 kit lens. That latter kit is about 1kg and costs 95,000 yen - it's still an enthusiast camera, with a lot of direct control, which could be potentially off-putting to a customers who value simplicity. Anything in-between has become unavailable - Q, MX-1, small K-mount). I think it's little wonder their sales are suffering if they are ignoring the average consumer.

I feel like this forum is a bit of an echo chamber of people who like large, feature-rich DSLR cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but it's true, I think. The K-1 is certainly well received here, but I'm not sure how statistically significant we are to Ricoh's fortunes. It's also a very packed market segment - so many competitors for the enthusiast who has $2,000 to spend on a camera. The upcoming FF lenses are not going to help Ricoh much, in my opinion. I personally think that FF has been a distraction from strengthening APS-C and 645, where they at least had a chance of building a complete system. Ironically, affordable 645 is now a "thing", but Ricoh seems to have the whole line on hold. What is really needed is something that has some more mass appeal, even if it only sells well in Asia.

Anyway, I'm kind of concerned by this latest report, but I can't help but feel that Ricoh is going to do something to fill that huge void below the K-70 with something interesting soon.
We don't have many camera stores that are full packed and cary Pentax overhere. So reaching customers is hard. I also said somewhere here that the number of people willing to carry around a camera of 1 kg and more with lenses in a bag is getting small very fast.

The biggest issue for Pentax is that over the last two years the Japanese market for dslr has collapsed. That market is down 20 % in the first 5 months this year and nothing compared to some years ago.

The way I see Pentax.....it is a patiŽnt on life support.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 07-29-2017 at 04:58 AM.
07-29-2017, 02:27 AM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think the problem they have at the moment is a complete lack of any mainstream camera for the average customer. Imagine a customer goes into a shop with a full selection of cameras from all brands. They are smart enough to know that a dedicated camera will give them better pictures from their upcoming holiday than a smartphone, but they are by no means an enthusiast. They can find a huge number of general use cameras from other vendors, but nothing suitable from Ricoh in this past year.

Looking at what Ricoh is offering, the smaller cameras are all distinctly niche (GR, Theta, WG) and the next step up is the K-70 with 18-135 kit lens. That latter kit is about 1kg and costs 95,000 yen - it's still an enthusiast camera, with a lot of direct control, which could be potentially off-putting to a customers who value simplicity. Anything in-between has become unavailable - Q, MX-1, small K-mount). I think it's little wonder their sales are suffering if they are ignoring the average consumer.

I feel like this forum is a bit of an echo chamber of people who like large, feature-rich DSLR cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but it's true, I think. The K-1 is certainly well received here, but I'm not sure how statistically significant we are to Ricoh's fortunes. It's also a very packed market segment - so many competitors for the enthusiast who has $2,000 to spend on a camera. The upcoming FF lenses are not going to help Ricoh much, in my opinion. I personally think that FF has been a distraction from strengthening APS-C and 645, where they at least had a chance of building a complete system. Ironically, affordable 645 is now a "thing", but Ricoh seems to have the whole line on hold. What is really needed is something that has some more mass appeal, even if it only sells well in Asia.

Anyway, I'm kind of concerned by this latest report, but I can't help but feel that Ricoh is going to do something to fill that huge void below the K-70 with something interesting soon.
Interesting post, thank you. Round here outside the capital what I see in country shops is something like the Panasonic GX80/85 and maybe their twin lens kit for it. Everything you need for well under the magic 1000 and with just the one kit lens on offer sometimes for under 500. In fact this is towards the top of the range in some shops. Even so, in capable hands, with a tripod and good PP skills, even this camera with its kit lens would deliver a print good enough for the UK's landscape photographer of the year competiton. People forget the massive overkill which goes on in selling enthusiast cameras. Anyway, this kind of thing on APS-C, M43 or 1" is where I hope Ricoh do something. Yes it would be mirrorless. But let's be real here: Ricoh are only going to invest in something which promises a new revenue stream with reasonable growth prospects. They spelled this out in large letters in their recent 3-5 year plans. That isn't DSLRs since they already do them. And if Ricoh are investing, then we are still in the game. Maybe a partnership if Ricoh want to spread the cost and risk.

Last edited by mecrox; 07-29-2017 at 02:35 AM.
07-29-2017, 03:34 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Ricoh are only going to invest in something which promises a new revenue stream with reasonable growth prospects.
Theta?
07-29-2017, 04:05 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Theta?
No, Pentax should do a Olympus EM1, because everyone think their choice is the right one.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-29-2017 at 04:12 AM.
07-29-2017, 04:50 AM - 1 Like   #39
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Surely you meant a Sony A9, as that's the right choice.
No, surely you meant a Fuji XT-2, as that's the right choice.
No, surely you meant a Samsung NX-1, and d*mned be all companies who didn't go bankrupt in a futile attempt to save it.
07-29-2017, 05:38 AM - 1 Like   #40
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Well, I just think Pentax needs to continue to release new products. Release some consumer lenses with new coatings. Weather seal the DA limiteds. Release the DFA *50 and 85 already. Put the K3 III out there.

There are a lot of options, some of which wouldn't be really expensive, but which could provide a nice revenue boost without changing the mount.
07-29-2017, 05:44 AM - 2 Likes   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
(...)
Ricoh are only going to invest in something which promises a new revenue stream with reasonable growth prospects.
(...)
As for the <Other> business segment, which is subdivided into 'Industrial Products' (optical equipment, electronic components, semiconductor devices), 'Smart Vision' (digital and industrial cameras) and 'Other' (finance business in Japan, 3D printing, environment and healthcare), Ricoh's communication is pretty clear about the growth prospects:



Source: Consolidated Results for Three Months Ended June 30, 2017

The figures are unfortunate but they are what they are: between Q1 2017/03 (April-June 2016) and Q1 2018/03 (April-June 2017), the sales of the 'Smart Vision' subdivision (i.e. digital and industrial cameras) went from •7.8bn ($72m / €64m) to •4.3bn ($39m / €35m) i.e. minus 45 per cent. and Ricoh are attributing this plunge to digital cameras.
07-29-2017, 06:16 AM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
As for the <Other> business segment, which is subdivided into 'Industrial Products' (optical equipment, electronic components, semiconductor devices), 'Smart Vision' (digital and industrial cameras) and 'Other' (finance business in Japan, 3D printing, environment and healthcare), Ricoh's communication is pretty clear about the growth prospects:



Source: Consolidated Results for Three Months Ended June 30, 2017

The figures are unfortunate but they are what they are: between Q1 2017/03 (April-June 2016) and Q1 2018/03 (April-June 2017), the sales of the 'Smart Vision' subdivision (i.e. digital and industrial cameras) went from •7.8bn ($72m / €64m) to •4.3bn ($39m / €35m) i.e. minus 45 per cent. and Ricoh are attributing this plunge to digital cameras.
Yes I noticed that and hinted at it in a previous post.

Look, my own view is that Ricoh made a catastrophic mistake by leaving the old Pentax management in charge instead of bringing in new blood in 2011 and those fellows have soon gone on to back the wrong horse in launching an FF DSLR system just as the market is changing away from all that. I am not an FF person anyway and I don't expect many if any to agree with me so I won't comment further or reply to those who disagree. But I do very much want Pentax to continue because I like their cameras and their style, so I am trying to see whether there are ways of making that happen. Otherwise there is really only one end to this, if not now then before very long as the market for big, heavy, traditional DSLRs gradually dries up. Canon and Nikon will still sell plenty but there just won't be room in it for small third players anymore (imho, I should add).

Last edited by mecrox; 07-29-2017 at 06:26 AM.
07-29-2017, 06:37 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
(...) Canon and Nikon will still sell plenty but there just won't be room in it for small third players anymore (imho, I should add).
Canon figures for the same quarter compared to last year's quarter (in units, trends in sales would be slightly better):

- interchangeable lens cameras: minus 5%
- mirrorless cameras: plus 70%
- reflex cameras: not specified
- compact cameras: minus 8%
- total cameras : minus 6%.

Sources: http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2017q2e-sum.pdf page 5 and http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2017q2e.pdf page 13.

07-29-2017, 06:42 AM   #44
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I think Ricoh's problem has actually been that they are too focused on the Japanese market. If they tried a little bit, I would think it wouldn't be hard to increase sales in the North America market, but they have done the opposite of try, at least in the US, and other than Amazon, B and H, and Adorama, it is hardly possible to get a Pentax camera. In point of fact, their US sales force is non-existent, there is basically no advertising other than word of mouth.

I understand that Pentax has always been a Japan-centric company, but certainly it makes sense to figure out ways to grow in other markets.
07-29-2017, 07:12 AM   #45
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@mecrox: Are you sure about that?
Since October 1st 2011, several names appeared as (Pentax) Ricoh Imaging's presidents: Mr. Zenji Miura, Mr. Noboru Akahane, Mr. Shinobu Takahashi - aren't those Ricoh people?
Pentax was so much in control, that Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company got renamed into Ricoh Imaging Company.

---------- Post added 29-07-17 at 05:13 PM ----------


Last edited by pjv; 07-29-2017 at 07:23 AM.
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