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09-09-2017, 11:58 PM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No camera maker can count on their target consumer possessing a desktop or laptop for CPU processing.
Correct. Over the last few years, we've seen added connectivity to DSLR and MILC. Like everything, that's not perfect, and that will become seemless in the future. With seamless connectivity, sharing will bond excellence of camera image quality with sharing capability of mobile. That's cool and that will be even better in the future.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
But Nikon is selling D850s from a vastly reduced customer base. They've shut down assembly lines over the last 4 years.
It's not a problem, don't worry. As long as there is still a company still alive to make large sensor cameras for the professionals and hobby photographer, we'll be able to get pro level cameras when our DSLR will die.

Life tells that downturns are followed by upturns, not necessarily in the same sector. So, don't worry, we'll be fine. Most important is our own physical and mental health, without that, it's hard to enjoy.

09-10-2017, 02:47 AM   #482
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ILCs will be around for a long time. If fewer people buy them then yes, some brands will go out of business and the cost of the ones that remain will go up some, but they will be there. Connectivity, better jpeg engines, on camera filters are all things that have come and will be improved over time, but I don't see them as being real drivers of sales on the upper end sorts of cameras like the D850.
09-10-2017, 07:31 AM - 1 Like   #483
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On this forum and other photographic gear forums, most posters are photo enthusiasts and tend to forget most people dont even care about the whole photographic technology.

My daughter has a PhD in computer science, works as a software developer in avionics in Thalès, one of the world major defense hightech company.

For her travel and events photography, she prefers using a dedicated compact zoom camera rather than her smartphone, and she processes the OOC JPEG files in PICASA, to improve the framing and contrast, whereas most of her friends never do any post processing.

Her camera, Panasonic LF1, now discontinued, is still sold under the Leica brand as "Leica C". It is a very nice pocketable camera, with a built in (very tiny) EVF, it allows P,S,A, and M modes, and it can save the RAW files. But she never used anything else than the I-Auto or scene modes, and doesnt want to hear about aperture, shutter speed or raw processing (though she, of course, has a powerful laptop with a large screen, a Photoshop Elements license, and a tablet that can house a SD card and has a USB external port).

When we went together to Tanzania for safari, she borrowed my K30 and an old film era Pentax 100-300 FA zoom , but shot only in green auto mode, until I showed her she could get better results in long telephoto in TAV mode (but she just dialed the aperture and shutter speed I told her to, and didnt want to dig deeper in handling the camera).
When we came back, though I offered her to give her the gear with other kit lenses, she just said "no, too big and heavy to carry around, and I dont see the difference in the output for my photography".

What I mean is that, IMO, advanced post processing and shooting raw is now only done by some enthusiasts and/or very demanding photographers.
Already, not all pro photographers do process raw, because many have noticed that the in-cameras JPEG engines are much better than 10 years ago, and the OOC JPEGs are good enough for what they need, even for high contrast or low light/high ISO scenes.

As the cameras CPU will continue to offer more processing power, and as software is a cumulating science, this trend will IMO become predominant in the future, and most skilled photographers will be happy with the OOC JPEG, once the camera tweaked to their taste, and wont use the raw file anymore.
This will also be the rule for pros, they will maybe save the RAW besides the JPEG, but they wont take the time to do any advanced PP, save fo a very few outstanding pictures for very demanding uses.

Thus, IMO, the RAW processing process will become less and less important in photography within a few years, and the main question will be which sensor size will become tomorrow standard for advanced cameras, as even Canon wont be able to maintain several different systems in a declining market.

IMO, the 1" sensor will probably be the standard for future fixed lens cameras, and for ILC, the major battle will be between M43 and APS-C, and one of them will progressively win. The larger FF format inheritated from the film era will become a niche market like MF today. So will become our beloved SLR optical viewfinder, as less and less people will be interested by its specificity.

Dont misunderstand me, I do love my K3, its bright pentaprism viewfinder and its ergonomy. Shooting with it is the most enjoyable experience for stills. But I hate carrying a bag full of lenses and I think it will become tomorrow the same kind of niche product as today's Leica rangefinders cameras.
09-10-2017, 09:22 AM   #484
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Another factor lies in the diminishing surface of standard housing amongst all more developped countries (under demographic pressure, people getting apart, property's increasing costs, aso....) : if you leave in a smaller space, you have conversely much less wall surfaces available to exhibit your best liked posters & photographies... and less space to stock your gear...

09-10-2017, 10:48 AM   #485
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
On this forum and other photographic gear forums, most posters are photo enthusiasts and tend to forget most people dont even care about the whole photographic technology.

My daughter has a PhD in computer science, works as a software developer in avionics in Thalès, one of the world major defense hightech company.

For her travel and events photography, she prefers using a dedicated compact zoom camera rather than her smartphone, and she processes the OOC JPEG files in PICASA, to improve the framing and contrast, whereas most of her friends never do any post processing.

Her camera, Panasonic LF1, now discontinued, is still sold under the Leica brand as "Leica C". It is a very nice pocketable camera, with a built in (very tiny) EVF, it allows P,S,A, and M modes, and it can save the RAW files. But she never used anything else than the I-Auto or scene modes, and doesnt want to hear about aperture, shutter speed or raw processing (though she, of course, has a powerful laptop with a large screen, a Photoshop Elements license, and a tablet that can house a SD card and has a USB external port).

When we went together to Tanzania for safari, she borrowed my K30 and an old film era Pentax 100-300 FA zoom , but shot only in green auto mode, until I showed her she could get better results in long telephoto in TAV mode (but she just dialed the aperture and shutter speed I told her to, and didnt want to dig deeper in handling the camera).
When we came back, though I offered her to give her the gear with other kit lenses, she just said "no, too big and heavy to carry around, and I dont see the difference in the output for my photography".

What I mean is that, IMO, advanced post processing and shooting raw is now only done by some enthusiasts and/or very demanding photographers.
Already, not all pro photographers do process raw, because many have noticed that the in-cameras JPEG engines are much better than 10 years ago, and the OOC JPEGs are good enough for what they need, even for high contrast or low light/high ISO scenes.

As the cameras CPU will continue to offer more processing power, and as software is a cumulating science, this trend will IMO become predominant in the future, and most skilled photographers will be happy with the OOC JPEG, once the camera tweaked to their taste, and wont use the raw file anymore.
This will also be the rule for pros, they will maybe save the RAW besides the JPEG, but they wont take the time to do any advanced PP, save fo a very few outstanding pictures for very demanding uses.

Thus, IMO, the RAW processing process will become less and less important in photography within a few years, and the main question will be which sensor size will become tomorrow standard for advanced cameras, as even Canon wont be able to maintain several different systems in a declining market.

IMO, the 1" sensor will probably be the standard for future fixed lens cameras, and for ILC, the major battle will be between M43 and APS-C, and one of them will progressively win. The larger FF format inheritated from the film era will become a niche market like MF today. So will become our beloved SLR optical viewfinder, as less and less people will be interested by its specificity.

Dont misunderstand me, I do love my K3, its bright pentaprism viewfinder and its ergonomy. Shooting with it is the most enjoyable experience for stills. But I hate carrying a bag full of lenses and I think it will become tomorrow the same kind of niche product as today's Leica rangefinders cameras.
Interesting ideas. Apple have intro'd their high-efficiency image and video formats, perhaps because they see things standardising around 4K or 5K which puts a premium on image storage combined with high quality. So perhaps both RAW and jpeg will be replaced, for those who want, with a newer file format. Image storage is a big issue for anyone without a PC and/or backup disk or cloud storage account which is likely most people. And the most popular viewing method may be a quality experience on a 4K device. I'd guess camera-makers will have to go along with this or face being left out in the cold,
09-10-2017, 01:28 PM - 1 Like   #486
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The ILC market has a tech advantage with optics and sensor size.

But they tied market improvements to post-processing using either some clunky PC/Mac software delivered (still) on CD-ROM or through very costly programs like LR or COne. You buy an advanced sensor and optics only to be told that to use RAW editing you need another $3k worth of equipment and nearly unlimited time to inevest in a steep learning curve. Or, process in-camera on a 3" LCD.

Lousy choices for the upgrading consumer and totally out of touch with the decline in PC use and transition to mobile OSs.

So if OOC JPEGs aren't quite good enough, there is nothing for,the consumer to bridge that save Apple Photos or Google's equivalent. My take from working as an Aperture tester was that Apple found the traditional camera industry insular and unwilling or unable to transition to changing consumer expectations. So lens and RAW profiles were always late to Apple etc. The camera manufacturers operate from the assumption that consumers really want to edit on a 3" screen and everything else is an afterthought, and the move to tablets and smartphones is a threat best ignored.

The reasons for 4-5k video is it allows for excellent stills capture which current HD formats cannot do.
09-16-2017, 07:35 AM   #487
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thread's still alive ... cant believe it.
09-16-2017, 08:47 AM   #488
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
thread's still alive ... cant believe it.
We have to keep it alive until October and Q2 Financial Announcement .

09-16-2017, 01:41 PM - 1 Like   #489
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
thread's still alive ... cant believe it.
Yeah, a certain Greek from Canada keeps wandering in circles.
09-21-2017, 06:31 PM - 1 Like   #490
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
ILCs will be around for a long time. If fewer people buy them then yes, some brands will go out of business and the cost of the ones that remain will go up some, but they will be there.
This is where I think the people you hear arguing shrinking market share isn't important/FF will get cheaper/market the hell out of FF IQ advantages and they will come/are dead wrong. If Pentax continues to shrink, future Pentax FF DSLR's won't cost $1500, they'll cost $3000, assuming the imaging business can subsist on tiny market shares backed by low profit margins in the single digits. I doubt making 5% profit is enough to sustain R&D for future cameras and lenses. More likely it's barely enough to tread water.
09-22-2017, 10:56 PM   #491
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Same way they partially partnered with tamron, they should do that with sony given they buy their sensor. This would be like winning a lottery over night. There are third party company already working on K adapter on Sony. Coming out of a 20mile hike and terrain, with K1, 15-30, 24-70, 28-105 and still wished to had longer Telephoto lens in my bags for some occasions, I wouldn't mind a smaller body tho. Backpack was heavy

Last edited by Pentax_WA; 09-23-2017 at 10:38 AM.
09-22-2017, 11:20 PM   #492
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Business

Business is business. Canon & Nikon are too agressive.
09-30-2017, 09:25 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The ILC market has a tech advantage with optics and sensor size.

But they tied market improvements to post-processing using either some clunky PC/Mac software delivered (still) on CD-ROM or through very costly programs like LR or COne. You buy an advanced sensor and optics only to be told that to use RAW editing you need another $3k worth of equipment and nearly unlimited time to inevest in a steep learning curve. Or, process in-camera on a 3" LCD.

Lousy choices for the upgrading consumer and totally out of touch with the decline in PC use and transition to mobile OSs.

So if OOC JPEGs aren't quite good enough, there is nothing for,the consumer to bridge that save Apple Photos or Google's equivalent. My take from working as an Aperture tester was that Apple found the traditional camera industry insular and unwilling or unable to transition to changing consumer expectations. So lens and RAW profiles were always late to Apple etc. The camera manufacturers operate from the assumption that consumers really want to edit on a 3" screen and everything else is an afterthought, and the move to tablets and smartphones is a threat best ignored.

The reasons for 4-5k video is it allows for excellent stills capture which current HD formats cannot do.
To be honest you don't need 3K$ equipement for post processing images. Any computer sold today does a great job except maybe the ultra portable devices and most already have a computer at home. This is not the issue, at least not in western countries.

You can also edit just fine on tablets and on phones if you like it, but the tooling available in 10 time worse so for any professionnal looking result, that's not possible.

And yes post processing is required and it require skills. There graphists that do just that. It is used a lot in the industry but it doesn't target the same people. Most people don't target to make profesionnal looking pictures for a magazine, for advertisers and so on.

So they don't really care if their camera can handle it or not to be honest.
09-30-2017, 06:02 PM   #494
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
To be honest you don't need 3K$ equipement for post processing images. Any computer sold today does a great job except maybe the ultra portable devices and most already have a computer at home. This is not the issue, at least not in western countries.
That's true, in a majority of cases a 1k computer (on the lowerish-end, even custom built comps around that price point) will do fine for photo editing. At a certain point, spending more money for higher end hardware will be a bit of overkill unless you're going to be doing video editing on top of that.
09-30-2017, 08:24 PM   #495
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I think that @Aristophanes' point is that the desktop computer age is all but over (whether that's at the $3k pricepoint or $1k pricepoint) and that any workflow still tied to it will not see widespread mass market adoption.

I tend to agree.
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