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07-29-2017, 01:04 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
As for the <Other> business segment, which is subdivided into 'Industrial Products' (optical equipment, electronic components, semiconductor devices), 'Smart Vision' (digital and industrial cameras) and 'Other' (finance business in Japan, 3D printing, environment and healthcare), Ricoh's communication is pretty clear about the growth prospects:



Source: Consolidated Results for Three Months Ended June 30, 2017

The figures are unfortunate but they are what they are: between Q1 2017/03 (April-June 2016) and Q1 2018/03 (April-June 2017), the sales of the 'Smart Vision' subdivision (i.e. digital and industrial cameras) went from 7.8bn ($72m / 64m) to 4.3bn ($39m / 35m) i.e. minus 45 per cent. and Ricoh are attributing this plunge to digital cameras.
You guys who know about these things...are these figures comparable over time or are there too many changes of what's in each segment to know? What I'm thinking is; how was it the same quarter one year earlier? Could it be that 17 was the K1-"top" that was above average and now we're back to (almost) normal? (But which just looks bad if comparing to the K1-top?) I don't know, just asking if someone knows?

07-29-2017, 01:27 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Same for me, I was wanting what Pentax don't have, banging my head on the wall all day long, I lost patience on the 12-28, and one day I had a genius idea (you know this Ah ah ! moment), I went to the Pentax shop and I got the DFA 15-30. Now, I don't look up the road map for the lens, I look down in my camera bag , and with the DFA15-30, you don't need to open the camera bag to know it's there, only the weight of the bag will suffice LoL.

Anyway, Nicolas, you can still get a Samy 14mm 2.8 for K3, or Samy 20mm 1.8 on K1, at that FoV, manual focus isn't difficult, you can even set the focus ring past the hyperfocal distance and keep it there.
I'am neither interrested in 15-30 or K1: both are big/heavy/expensive. What there is to like there? For now I'am with DA15 with the K3. Reasonably small/light. If there is something to change, then it is for downsizing. As that that doesn't exist in Pentax, that would be something different. No really the choice; GX8 + 12-60 f/2.8 + few of the small primes, A6500 + 16-70 f/4 + 28FE + 85FE... something along the lines. I don't know. As you explain there no point to ask for what doesn't exist and honestly I have no issue with that. There likely won't be a K-mount mirrorless... So I'll get a mirrorless eventually another way.

And don't say to me the DA15 for example isn't capable... That I need a huge full frame + bulky f/2.8 to achieve anything.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 11-24-2017 at 02:50 AM.
07-29-2017, 01:33 PM - 2 Likes   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Same for me, I was wanting what Pentax don't have, banging my head on the wall all day long, I lost patience on the 12-28, and one day I had a genius idea (you know this Ah ah ! moment), I went to the Pentax shop and I got the DFA 15-30. Now, I don't look up the road map for the lens, I look down in my camera bag , and with the DFA15-30, you don't need to open the camera bag to know it's there, only the weight of the bag will suffice LoL.

Anyway, Nicolas, you can still get a Samy 14mm 2.8 for K3, or Samy 20mm 1.8 on K1, at that FoV, manual focus isn't difficult, you can even set the focus ring past the hyperfocal distance and keep it there.

I find that would be great if it had front threads for ring filters. If it supported filters, I'd have already bought it.. despite the size and price. Optically it looks fantastic.

The 14mm has odd distortion and is a mixed bag on sharpness and quality control. The 20mm isn't quite wide enough despite supporting filters. And I've tried 2 copies of the IRIX 15mm and both couldn't focus to infinity, even despite being on max adjustment.

The Sigma 10-20mm isn't a bad wide angle for crop.. I used that one for a few years and didn't have any complaints.

My biggest issue is I got settled into expecting what I had in crop to be available in full frame. And it's not all there. There is no 10-20 equiv with threaded filters, there is no 55-300 WR or PLM like lens (yet, on roadmap even though 300mm on ff is like 200mm on crop, at least there is a small telephoto zoom coming).. I did get the 28-105 WR and it is nice. Shares the same OEM lens hood as the crop 18-135 WR even.

However both Canon and Nikon have those lenses available to them. Both offer a 16-35 f/4 with front threads and have the small, affordable Sigma 100-400 f/5-6.3 available. Both also have a sharp 70-300mm FF lens to boot.

Pentax must have really low sales not to convince Sigma to start offering more DG lenses in K mount. There are so many holes that they could easily plug with lenses they already offer in other mounts.. it seems like it would be easy money.

That is what concerns me more than anything else with Pentax.. 3rd parties have more data than you or I have on sales figures and forecasts.. and they have all shrunk their offerings for K mount over the past few years. So they seem not convinced of K mount right now. Safer money is in F and EF mounts it seems..
07-29-2017, 01:52 PM - 2 Likes   #64
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I do wonder what Pentax is doing. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that they are trying to figure out where the market is going and whether the K-1 and K3 III are really the answers to that. Would they release a K-02 or a full frame mirrorless with a different mount and an adapter? Hard to say, but at the current rate of development, even such a camera would not be an answer, simply because the lenses wouldn't be there for it till this time 2025.

07-29-2017, 03:05 PM   #65
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Focus on core strengths, advertise, deliver. That's basic marketing, which is just not apparent here and surely not something new to be suggested I'm sure.

Fuji has the vintage film camera styling and feeling. Olympus/Panasonic are the small sized m4/3 stills and video cameras. Leica is the rangefinder type camera. Sony is bleeding edge technology. Nikon and Canon have a professional pedigree. Ricoh/Pentax needs something that is recognized as a standard for ALL their products. Something like some level weather sealing on all bodies and lenses, entry level APS-C to professional FF and medium format. Who else offers a complete, well built, weather sealed SYSTEM from entry level to professional? There's defined lens lines like the Limited and Star lenses with a fairly clear purpose and design in the lens lineup. But what's the defined purpose and design of Ricoh/Pentax in the market lineup.

Have the suits in Japan gone through this exercise? Probably. Is that enough on it's own? Not likely. But it'll be something to get people talking about your products aside from "they still make cameras?". It's like Ricoh has a messaging problem, with the message being that they don't have one at least in Canada/North America IMO.
07-29-2017, 04:57 PM - 1 Like   #66
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Before we had the K-1, there were more than a few people here who denied its possible appearance on the grounds of an existing unsuitable lens portfolio. It now seems there was something (though clearly not everything) to their argument. Ricoh management specifically said that they produced the K-1 to address a need based on people's enthusiasm for a 35FF body, presumably because of their film-era lens collections. Having satisfied the bulk of that demand, they've limited any broader appeal of the K-1 by not investing in multiple new lenses in a short space of time, at least in the immediate term. I can understand that a board of directors considering the health of the overall Ricoh operation would be reluctant to allocate the working capital needed to do this for a very small part of their business.

However, the burden of under-utilised production capacity must now be working to further undermine the argument for a working capital allocation to build the range of new lenses. Perhaps an external arrangement with a smaller independent manufacturer like Tokina or Cosina is the best way to do this for the design of new lenses that can achieve scale with sales to buyers of other brands. This, of course, was done in the past and in doing so, it may reverse the present situation where the brand is somewhat devalued by selling reworked Tamron designs at a premium. It will still require additional design staff (employed or contracted), but the economics may be better than trying to do everything in house.

Without new lenses covering a much greater range than the present roadmap, even a K-2 with a hybrid viewfinder and improved AF isn't going to reverse the current slide, let alone build a secure platform for the future. For much the same reasoning as above, shifting away from the K-mount isn't a likely viable option for Pentax, so mirrorless body enthusiasts are probably going to be disappointed if they think otherwise.
07-29-2017, 07:29 PM - 2 Likes   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I do wonder what Pentax is doing. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that they are trying to figure out where the market is going and whether the K-1 and K3 III are really the answers to that. Would they release a K-02 or a full frame mirrorless with a different mount and an adapter? Hard to say, but at the current rate of development, even such a camera would not be an answer, simply because the lenses wouldn't be there for it till this time 2025.
Given the limited capacity for R&D and production I don't see them attempting to develop a new mount. One could argue that the can't even maintain K-mount and 645. They have to find a way to bring the advantages of mirrorless to an OVF camera. Looking at how much processing power was in the Samsung NX-1 and in the A9, it is obviously possible for Ricoh to increase the processing power of their cameras significantly without getting bigger. Hybrid OVF technology is needed. I think the PDAF sensor and color meter will need to be replaced with a 2+MP sensor that is capable of facial recognition. Ricoh needs to develop smart AF technology where the camera can actually identify the subject and track it. We see this already in mirrorless cameras. You can set a Sony camera up to remember the face of the bride and look for her in every picture. The camera then will always focus on the bride if she is in the picture. I can worry about composition and let the camera track her in the image. For people working events and needing to work fast these are great features. As much as I don't really like my Sony A7II, it has a lot of great technology and the AF accuracy is amazing. Ricoh makes excellent equipment, but they desperately need to bring speed and technology to their products. They had the opportunity to own the medium format market with the 645 system, but they have done very little with it. Now Fuji has jumped into the sub $10K market and Ricoh is just watching. I hope I'm wrong. I hope Ricoh has something impressive that they are getting ready to launch, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
07-29-2017, 09:13 PM   #68
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Given Pentax/Ricoh's financial condition and their limited R&D resources, we can not expect them to in the near future beat either Canon, Nikon or Sony at what they are best at (technology, fast/accurate AF, lens selection, mirrorless).

So, what should Pentax focus on? I suggest that they focus on their historical strengths. Double down on -

1. Weather sealing. How about carrying their weather sealing to an even higher level? Make their new cameras lenses so weather sealed that you can use them underwater to maybe 5 - 10 foot depth?

2. Pixel shift. PS is revolutionary - further develop it's capability. Enable PS to be used to shoot moving objects. Make PS available in a smaller/tiny Q like body. Imagine PS that can be used for shooting moving subjects handheld in a body the size of the Q with a larger sensor size!

07-29-2017, 09:42 PM   #69
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Just thought of something else...

I have a new Apple iphone. I just checked the Apple iPhone Users Guide. Do you know how many pages are devoted to it's camera? 5

Do you know how many pages my Pentax K1's operating manual is? 134

To appeal to the iPhone generation, maybe Pentax/Ricoh needs to come out with a really simple camera?

Just saying.
07-29-2017, 10:01 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
Given Pentax/Ricoh's financial condition and their limited R&D resources, we can not expect them to in the near future beat either Canon, Nikon or Sony at what they are best at (technology, fast/accurate AF, lens selection, mirrorless).

So, what should Pentax focus on? I suggest that they focus on their historical strengths. Double down on -

1. Weather sealing. How about carrying their weather sealing to an even higher level? Make their new cameras lenses so weather sealed that you can use them underwater to maybe 5 - 10 foot depth?

2. Pixel shift. PS is revolutionary - further develop it's capability. Enable PS to be used to shoot moving objects. Make PS available in a smaller/tiny Q like body. Imagine PS that can be used for shooting moving subjects handheld in a body the size of the Q with a larger sensor size!
1. All companies have weather sealing. To use cameras underwater - what is new?
2. It's really good for static objects. I think it's unreal to make this technology to shoot moving object with 100% effectiveness.
I don't think that Q body is right and good way.
07-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #71
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Yes, other companies have weather sealing. But not all of their cameras have weather sealing. Other companies' lenses will also cost you an arm just to get weather sealed lenses. Pricing as I have earlier said should also be reviewed. But again, will lower prices be feasible for Pentax's going concern. I hope they know what they're going to do. I don't think they need to be number one. I just think they should be very profitable to go on.
07-29-2017, 10:20 PM - 2 Likes   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
Just thought of something else...

I have a new Apple iphone. I just checked the Apple iPhone Users Guide. Do you know how many pages are devoted to it's camera? 5

Do you know how many pages my Pentax K1's operating manual is? 134

To appeal to the iPhone generation, maybe Pentax/Ricoh needs to come out with a really simple camera?

Just saying.
I gave my K-50 to a waiter to take a group shot and learned that some young people today don't even know how to use a viewfinder or shutter button. Forget about metering or PASM modes. Someone needs to make a user interface on a dslr that incorporates a touch screen with and the ability to transmit the photo to social media and save in the cloud immediately.
Go to 18:17 in this video:
Get rid of the computer entirely.
07-29-2017, 10:39 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
No really the choice; GX8 + 12-60 f/2.8 + few of the small primes, A6500 + 16-70 f/4 + 28FE + 85FE... something along the lines. I don't know. As you explain there no point to ask for what doesn't exist and honestly I have no issue with that. There likely won't be a K-mount mirrorless... So I'll get a mirrorless eventually another way.
I get your point (I'm watching to grab a mirrorless prime combo for traveling). Coming from apsc, I find u43 very much "consumer" grade, pictures are good but a bit limited with ISO. Recently, we see sensors like the one in the KP, 24Mp apsc, deliver near full frame image quality at a fraction of the cost and size. u43 offer small bodies, but the size difference between apsc mirrorless and u43 isn't much. I like the Fuji XT2, fast AF, nicely built and stylish but is expensive. The XT20 is cheaper but ergonomically not as good as XT2. I've tried the Canon M5, nice, M mount lenses feels cheap, autofocus same as Pentax. So, I believe there will be more competition for mirrorless camera in a couple of year from now, maybe a good Nikon mirrorless better than Canon M. I prefer to wait and see.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-30-2017 at 12:58 AM.
07-30-2017, 04:43 AM   #74
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KP and K-70 seemed to come straight out of nowhere for me. Nothing one minute, then a fully-fledged camera release ready to go.

They're working on something; I'm sure of it. And it will be big. But if they release now, they release into the storms of publicity surrounding the A9, Nikon D850, etc. etc., and the message gets lost.

The GFX50 was a shock to them, though; I don't think anyone predicted Fuji was going to bring their medium format camera in that cheap. They thought they had entry level 645 wrapped up, and now they do not. Methinks they are frantically working out what to do next. If Fuji aren't taking a terrific hidden loss on every unit sold, they will eat everybody's lunch eventually... but all this remains to be seen for sure.
07-30-2017, 04:58 AM   #75
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I think Fuji can do it for the same reasons Pentax could do it: support from higher volume cameras. And I'm talking about everything, including production facilities and distribution networks.
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