[Kunzite]

This interchange regarding whether John is somehow a traitor or heretic or aberrant for using another brand to get what Pentax does not offer

That "interchange" is not actually an interchange, as it happens only on John's head. Yes, it's a lie, and that I never used any of those words should be a dead giveaway.
If you'd go back and read my posts, you'd see that I have no issue whatsoever when people jump ship to a brand better suited for their needs. What I take issue with, is when such people are attacking Pentax especially with nonsense like "my smartphone is better".

[MarkJerling]

I'd like everyone to please refrain from wording that can be seen as personal attack to any particular individual member, regardless of his personal viewpoint.

[Kunzite]

I'm sorry, Mark - I get worked up precisely because my words are being twisted to mean something much worse than I actually said (and thought).

[shiner]

GH5 looks like a video monster!

[mecrox]

Cameras are gradually morphing into all-purpose image-capturing devices, including sound for video too. Sony just announced a little compact camera which can be networked into an image-taking array, rather like off-camera flash units. It's bound to do video-everything too. The vast majority of folks on this and other forums want a camera whose main talent is for delivering excellent still images using lenses of character and quality. I'm in that camp myself but not everyone is for all their output and they have excellent reasons for their choices too.

It's fairly clear which way the world is going and camera-makers have to follow in order to survive. Outfits which can't are likely to face tough times. The number of people who want traditional stills-only is shrinking and the number who want good stills but who also want video plus all the links and tricks is growing. In any case, why would they not want those things? Some of these new features are just amazing and, often, they are "on the chip" anyway. Got to be realistic about this. So long as the camera I choose can be configured to put out a good image and I get to choose the lens on the front, I'm not that fussed. Adaptability is a plus to me. Every so often, some of us local photogs here put on a co-op exhibition. No one has ever asked what gear was used to take any of the prints on the wall.

[beholder3]

It's sad to see a bunch of frustrated and not all competent users continuously personally attack Kunzite directly or by passive agressive behaviour. Kunzite has been a very convincing voice of reason for a long time.
One of the reason for ignore lists.


We need not only the "like" button, but also the "whined again" button.

[MarkJerling]

I'm sorry, Mark - I get worked up precisely because my words are being twisted to mean something much worse than I actually said (and thought).

Not aimed at you directly - Just a general comment as I see some comments have become quite personal. Having said that, I appreciate your and everyone else's input.

[Kunzite]

Thank you for your understanding and support.

[Rondec]

My goal is to tell travel stories. And I usually travel alone, so action shots of me riding a motorcycle have been notoriously challenging. I've tried everything and was initially attracted to Pentax and Ricoh in 2008/2009 thanks to their built-in intervalometers to help me get these shots. And I still frequently use my Q as a crash cam to get shots that make people wonder, "How did he do that?"


Ontario_RoadRUNNER_Jun14.pdf by John Flores, on Flickr

Pulling stills from 4k (and 6k) video is another way for me to get the shots that I want. And the publisher pays me, not Pentax, so I will use the gear that will get me what I need.



That's real nice of you to label me a heretic LOL. The majority of these published photos were taken with Pentax cameras and I'm the only motojournalist that I know that's shot with Pentax. But if I see an opportunity to improve the photos that I take then I will consider it, regardless of brand.

I still have a large collection of Pentax gear and shoot it regularly. I took the Q7 with the 08 Wide Angle Zoom, 03 Fisheye, Q-K adapter, and DA 55-300 with me on my trip to capture the total eclipse and several photos taken with that kit will likely get published.



Total Eclipse from Mackay, ID by John Flores, on Flickr

I know that this is a stills-centric forum and I'm still 95% stills-centric. So I included examples of how 4K video can be used to produce stills. Anyone that wants good stills of youth sports, birds in flight, and other action might be interested in 4K video.



My FA31 and FA43 are anxiously awaiting a full-frame camera...maybe a K-2 with 4k?




The whole point of 4K video for me is getting stills that I can use in my stories.

In practice, extracting stills from a 4K video stream is actually easier than wading through dozens upon dozens of still images in order to pick the right one. You have a single file to deal with and you can either do it in camera (step through the file and then export the frame that you want) or on the computer (open in Photoshop, step through the frames until you find the one that you want). There are issues with AF performance, particularly tracking AF, but in those situations where that is not a big concern (or managed with smaller apertures/increased DOF), I'd prefer the workflow of 4K stills vs. a high FPS stills camera.

In some ways it is like shooting a JPG (it's best to nail your exposure and white balance in camera) and pick shutter speeds and apertures with the still in mind (no 2 times the frame rate calculations).

And the quality is surprisingly good when you do it right. When I submit my stories, I send the publisher a folder of images. They choose the ones they want to publish and choose which photo to feature on the two page spread. Without knowing, they chose the shot that was pulled from 4k video for the two page lede spread above. And of the nine photos of mine chosen for the story, five of them were stills pulled from 4k video. Not once did they question the quality, and I know that they are picky.

I'm very much intrigued by the GH5 with 18 megapickle stills from 6k video. There are very intriguing stills applications for 4k and 6k video and I hope that Pentax recognizes this.

Each photographer needs to do what works best for him/her. Clearly you have had good results and it works for you. I guess thing to me is that with regard to work flow, a lot of photographers use Lightroom for the majority of their initial culling and editing process and having to go into a video editor as well would tend to slow things down.

I do think there is a little different mentality for shooting video and stills and people respond differently to it. A well done still photograph often evokes different sentiments in people than does video. I am not sure why, but I think that's why people are still willing to pay for still photography, even when video has come to dominate discussions on internet fora, like here.

[Nicolas06]

I see, you need shorter posts so u understand my point, instead of calling it a "nothingness"... LOL
AFAIK the business numbers all this is about are international and not only business numbers from 1st world countries.

and so maybe its better to only read the following 2 paragraphs.

Take the fr34kin average of WHOLE India or China, and talk again.

... hold back your nukes... just take your time and think about it.... this is no offense but more a tip on your shoulder.

So if something is saying nothing, it is the average of the whole. the result of this means ZIP to business reality.

Sure, that why in europe, the average is 310€. And that why in France, one of the european country with more wealth the average in europe, the average was 184€ in 2015. Your argument don't last 2 second because you just imagine it, you never try to backup or checkit toward some statistics.

For example the average price paid for a smartphone in China is higher than in France and the same as in whole europe. Even through French people get about 6 time more money per person than China and europe as a whole 5 time more.

If anything people that you describe that buy expensive smartphone quite often, and at twice the rate of worldwide average are over represented by the average. If you buy twice at often and twice as more expensive, you count 4 time more. If you are poor and buy a cheap one at 100$ every 5 year, your influence on the stats is 25 time less than they guy that buy one at 500$ every year. That how average works.

Mathematically, that the average is so low just show how uncommon theses guys are. That the average is not lower in china, a poor country show that they are neutral in theses statistics and buy phones similarly as europe and more expensive than in France... Remember that if you are really poor you don't buy at all and don't affect the statistics one bit.

You will have to accept there are also people who can and do effort themselves a new smartphone every year if not even twice or 3 times a year.

They exist. How many and how representative they are? You said nothing of that. Sorry. I know one. He broke the first phone and a thief took the second one but that one person around the 50 person I know at work that are all software engineer and make all quite some money...

I could afford 5 ot 10 top high phone a year no issue, like most people in rich countries. Like I could buy a FF body and associated pro lenses every year. But this simply make no sense. So even if you are wealthy you don't do it, because you have other interrest in life than colleting smartphone gear or cameras. In my case, this year I visited Germany, gone to Corsica, and later in the year I take a trip to Vietman and Cambodge. This is more money than an A9 body or a K1 with 70-200 and 24-70 f/2.8... Or the price of 10 top end smartphones. But none of theses buy would provide me with anything I couldn't do already. While the trips to place I have never been before, they provide something valuable for me.

A new smartphone doing exactly the same as the previous one is providing nothing for me. It being faster in benchmarks doesn't bring any value when I use it the old one still fast and has great autonomy. Waste of money.

nobody who loves photography and:

a) is quite sane and informs himself a bit about features...
b) is happy with a fixed focal length
c) has no lens legacy from father and or grand father in his closet

would go and start buyin into pentax or even canon(6d mark ii .... LOL... ROFL) dslr system at the moment.
that is something i totally and 100% agree to. if you also wanted to state that ...

Must be why Canon is #1 in sales with more than 50% of the ILC market... Likely many people do buy ILC and do no fit your definition of loving photography + sane + inform themselve + want primes + has no lens legacy.

Actually the people you describe would be a tiny portion of photographers for me. For me if you love photography, are informed, like primes and all it mean that you have been doing for quite a few years so you have a big legacy of primes and bodies.

You can draw people into the photography-machinery with the myth... but you cant hold em inside if you dont deliver contemporary and good features.

Agree, in particular as all the ILC camera are basically good enough. Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Sony. They are all more than good enough. Maybe some are better than others. But for taking photos in most situation they are good enough. Even if you make a new camera that is much better than the previous ones (think A9, D850...) the problem is the old camera is good enough, there no reason to upgrade.

Nonetheless, I stay with my oppinion:
If dedicated cameras at least offer the features that top-tier smartphones deliver, than they will get sold.

Otherwise chances may be very poor.

Nope, smartphones are not sold because because they are great camera or have easy sharing of photos. They are sold because they are swiss knife that do everything. And all people already have a smartphone anyway so they can already get all of that.

You need to make them desire something their smartphone isn't doing. Not something they already have. And the problem is in that lack of desire. ILC camera do much better photos, most people don't care of that. Better ILC like FF and all take even better photo, almost nobody care.

[Rondec]

The tough thing about smart phones is that they are devices that do a ton of different things but also have a camera on them. Having a camera on them makes them even more of a multipurpose tool, but I think that even if the camera was somehow left off people would continue to buy them for the other features (which include making phone calls and texting).

There are a number of things that have hurt camera sales. The bottom end, particularly compacts, were definitely hurt by smart phones. Camera technology maturing probably hurt sales (people just don't need to buy new gear as often). And a pretty bad world economy has hurt camera sales.

[lytrytyr]

I'd be more concerned about the ability of Pentax to survive Ricoh's management decisions, because there are different types of corporate leaders, some of them are builders, while a lot of them are bean-counters (they downsize to tweak the bottom line, stay a few years to take their salaries and leave early enough not to have to cope with the long term effects of their decisions

This is also the main source of my concern for Pentax right now.

Pentax has survived over the years by doing things a little differently to the mainstream,
and that kind of independent thinking involves taking risks every now and again,
which are anathema to the kind of managers you're describing.

[biz-engineer]

You need to make them desire something their smartphone isn't doing. Not something they already have. And the problem is in that lack of desire. ILC camera do much better photos, most people don't care of that. Better ILC like FF and all take even better photo, almost nobody care.

I think you are straight to the point. People have no reason to by something that has the same features that they already have in the phone. And generally, a lot of people don't care about full frame etc... you are right.
Not caring is a bit of a society concern. Things are going so fast, no time to enjoy, everything great is taken for granted, that's pathetic. You mentioned that you will visit Vietnam and Cambodia, those countries have changed a lot with technology with the gap with rich countries closing more and more. But there are still poor people closer to the real world who genuinely enjoy simple things. Too bad that fast economy comes along with losing the taste and respect of everything worth being enjoyed on earth. We have to get to think again about the cultural depth of people who don't care about photographic quality.

[Nicolas06]

I think you are straight to the point. People have no reason to by something that has the same features that they already have in the phone. And generally, a lot of people don't care about full frame etc... you are right.
Not caring is a bit of a society concern. Things are going so fast, no time to enjoy, everything great is taken for granted, that's pathetic. You mentioned that you will visit Vietnam and Cambodia, those countries have changed a lot with technology with the gap with rich countries closing more and more. But there are still poor people closer to the real world who genuinely enjoy simple things. Too bad that fast economy comes along with losing the taste and respect of everything worth being enjoyed on earth. We have to get to think again about the cultural depth of people who don't care about photographic quality.

As I understand it, this is enjoying a sunny afternoon, some quality time with friends or familly, simply doing what you love... If you ask Bill Gates, he'd say to you that he like to do the dishes because it means that he has the time to enjoy the moment !

I can see it being taking high quality photos, but only for the few that truely enjoy that. Many buy spec sheets, want to impress others with the money put in it or as a way to feel superior... What is important is to get latest greatest regardless of what it does or bring to the table. This isn't at all a match with enjoying simple things. While taking photos of your familly with the smartphone can perfectly match the enjoying simple things moto.

[Tatouzou]

The whole point is really for camera companies to emphasize the strengths of ILCs in comparison to phones. Telephoto is one such area, shallow depth of field photography another, and high dynamic range images a third. Most of those things do not need any third party software for processing at all -- out of camera jpegs will probably be fine -- although you can get an extra 10 to 20 percent of detail with post processing versus straight out of camera jpeg.

Maybe micro four thirds lenses are different, but I seldom use lens corrections -- whether in camera or in post processing. They just aren't needed in general.

Everybody in this thread seems to forget that all camera manufacturers offer a free dedicated PP software bundled with each camera.
Most of the time it is crippled to deny processing files shot using another brand camera, but it always allows you to fully PP the brand's native raw files.

Pentax, Fuji and Panasonic use Silkypix, which is a quite capable software, though its ergonomy an user's interface is specific and there is a steep learning curve.
I do prefer Adobe Lightroom, or DXO, because the ergonomy works the same whatever the camera brand. But these free dedicated software do actually work and are quite capable.

---------- Post added 09-04-17 at 03:52 PM ----------

Please re-read #341 above. You keep getting confused between the natural market for (D)SLR cameras and the purely amateur market. The people who gravitate to smart phone cameras today are the equivalent of those who were satisfied with "Brownie" cameras several generations back, then Instamatic cameras, then Disc cameras. They followed SLR cameras twenty years ago, because they saw SLR cameras as being "hot", but now they've moved on to smart phone cameras. Yes, Pentax could go after them, but only at the cost of losing in their natural market.

And, By The Way, I like the job done by the Pentax JPEG engine.

+1 for the IQ of Pentax OOC JPEGS