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10-17-2017, 12:58 AM   #61
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If they do, would you buy them BOTH?
I don't think you would buy any of them. Given real world restrictions - the G1 X Mark III's lens is not slow, is as big as they could put into the camera - there will be room for nitpicking... and then, there's the price issue.
A "24-100" f/2.8-3.5 would be significantly larger, and there's nothing Ricoh Imaging could do about that.

Do you remember the film era compacts? With their f/8-11 (at the tele end) zooms? Those were slow.


Last edited by Kunzite; 10-17-2017 at 01:07 AM.
10-17-2017, 01:42 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
G1 X Mark III is weather sealed APS-C camera with zoom for travel.

Small, light and tilting LCD, but ugly, expensive, slow battery and slow zoom.

Ricoh must produce TWO new GRIII 24 MP with fixed lens and with faster zoom and weather sealing....Alas...No any rumors.
But you simply can't have a large sensor compact with a fast, integrated zoom lens. There has to be a compromise, Boris - whether it's the size of the camera and lens, the size of the sensor and / or the speed and focal length range of the lens. Large sensor + fast, integrated zoom lens = non-compact.

When camera makers find a way to defy the laws of physics and produce what you're asking for, I'll be at the head of the queue
10-17-2017, 02:45 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If they do, would you buy them BOTH?

A "24-100" f/2.8-3.5 would be significantly larger, and there's nothing Ricoh Imaging could do about that..
man, there are technologies to make folding lenses compact and rather fast for bigger sensors, GR's 18/2.8 is very small.

we don't know if it would be significantly larger until we see such lens. don't compare with DSLR lenses.

this camera is not pocket size, that's why if the lens will be a bit bigger is not a problem.

it's slow for me. 24-70/2.8-5.6 is not slow for you. taste differs.

Last edited by ogl; 10-17-2017 at 03:10 AM.
10-17-2017, 02:51 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
But you simply can't have a large sensor compact with a fast, integrated zoom lens. There has to be a compromise, Boris - whether it's the size of the camera and lens, the size of the sensor and / or the speed and focal length range of the lens. Large sensor + fast, integrated zoom lens = non-compact.
Why? We say about special folding lenses for compact camera, not for classical mirrorless or DSLR.
And we say about reasonable compromise between aperture, size and focal range.

If Ricoh can produce shorter, but compact and faster lens in new GR, it's better for me than Canon's lens.

10-17-2017, 03:01 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
man, there are technologies to make lens compact and faster for bigger sensors, GR's 18/2.8 is very small.
Lens design has certainly allowed for reduction in lens size, but there's a huge difference between an 18mm f/2.8 prime and, say, a 16-50mm f/2.8.

If you can, show us a small, collapsible, fast zoom lens that covers the APS-C image circle. I don't believe such a lens exists... not small enough to incorporate in a compact camera, certainly.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
we don't know if it would be significantly larger until we see such lens. don't compare with DSLR lenses.
The only difference between that G1X MkIII and any other APS-C camera - DSLR, mirrorless, whatever - is the flange focal distance and fixed lens. Lens design and physics don't change - they are the limiting factor.
10-17-2017, 03:01 AM   #66
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Ogl, I've seen enough lenses (not only DSLR ones) to have a reasonable guess at what might be, and what might not be feasible. And the argument from ignorance doesn't work with me: you should prove that it can be done.
The 18mm is a prime; the 15-45mm is a zoom. Apples and orange trees.

If you only care about numbers but not actual performance, you can get "f/2.8" with a much smaller sensor.
10-17-2017, 03:16 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Lens design has certainly allowed for reduction in lens size, but there's a huge difference between an 18mm f/2.8 prime and, say, a 16-50mm f/2.8.
.
I don't say about folding 16-50/2.8...



10-17-2017, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't say about folding 16-50/2.8...
That's an f/3.5-5.6 lens, Boris. Typical, slow-ish kit zoom. The Canon already has that...
10-17-2017, 03:36 AM - 1 Like   #69
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IMHO a rather short zoom range would be sufficient.... on a FF compact...
and since you guys doubt that a rather fast digital FF zoom compact-camera can be done...
... I want to suggest you to take a closer look at the added picture and google 3 words ---> FUJI NATURA CLASSICA!!!!!
the cam is: 109.5mm×62.0mm×36.0mm
the Ricoh GR is: 117mm×61mm×34.7mm
so it should be possible to keep a FF RICOH GRZ(oom) nearly at the same size.






and NO, NO, NO... this is not an APS camera.

I have absolutely no idea, what could be difficult in making such a design digital...
and when I am thinking about how technology and everything evolved, I am sure that lens design could be improved.
Though, I would be totally satisfied with the 28mm-56mm F:2.8-5.4 lens also...(fast enough for me and though not a very long reach, still more versatile than just a 28mil wide a.)

If you need more examples on small compact zooms, search for yourself.
(Especially because sometimes on pentaxforums.com the motto seems to be: "Let no good deed go unpunished...")
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10-17-2017, 03:53 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
you guys doubt that a rather fast digital FF zoom compact-camera can be done...
... I want to suggest you to take a closer look at the added picture and google 3 words ---> FUJI NATURA CLASSICA!!!!!
the cam is: 109.5mm×62.0mm×36.0mm
the Ricoh GR is: 117mm×61mm×34.7mm
so it should be possible to keep a FF RICOH GRZ(oom) nearly at the same size.
I know that camera rather well... I lusted after one, for a while

The lens is small because it's a slow f/5.4 at the long end, with a rather limited focal length range of 28-56mm... wide-angle to more-or-less normal. I've never doubted that a lens with those design limitations can be small. That said, Fuji did a great job, and I'd be happy with that lens for a lot of photography

I do think, though, a compact, do it all, fixed lens camera needs to offer wide-angle to short-tele, otherwise it becomes narrower in its application and will have a smaller potential market.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-17-2017 at 04:08 AM.
10-17-2017, 04:23 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
That's an f/3.5-5.6 lens, Boris. Typical, slow-ish kit zoom. The Canon already has that...
Yes. It's lens for mirrorless camera. I think It's real to make such lens for GR faster and not bigger.
10-17-2017, 04:25 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by camyum Quote
IMHO a rather short zoom range would be sufficient.... on a FF compact...
and since you guys doubt that a rather fast digital FF zoom compact-camera can be done...
... I want to suggest you to take a closer look at the added picture and google 3 words ---> FUJI NATURA CLASSICA!!!!!
the cam is: 109.5mm×62.0mm×36.0mm
the Ricoh GR is: 117mm×61mm×34.7mm
e 28mm-56mm F:2.8-5.4 lens also...(fast enough for me and though not a very long reach, still more versatile than just a 28mil wide a.)
28-56/2.8-5.4 and compact FF like this Fuji is cool
10-17-2017, 04:54 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Yes. It's lens for mirrorless camera. I think It's real to make such lens for GR faster and not bigger.
How? How do you get past the physics, Boris?

There are very good reasons why no one has created such a lens yet. Just because the GR is compact, that doesn't change the laws of lens design. The format of the camera makes no difference... The GR is just a mirrorless camera with a fixed lens. The size of the lens is - to a great extent - affected by the focal length range, aperture, image circle size and flange focal distance (plus, of course, the optical formula).

You can have (a) a small-ish, fast zoom lens for a small sensor, (b) a small, slow zoom lens for a large sensor, or (c) a larger, fast zoom lens for a large sensor. What you can't have is (d)... a small, fast zoom lens for a large sensor. If you really believe that's possible, you must know something that conventional lens and camera manufacturers don't.
10-17-2017, 05:54 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
How? How do you get past the physics, Boris?
What about upper post about 28-54 ?
10-17-2017, 06:25 AM - 1 Like   #75
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A 28-56mm f/2.8-5.4 is fine and "cool", but a 15-45 f/2.8-5.6 is slow?
The Canon lens is APS-C; OTOH:
- it's made for high resolution digital sensors
- it's wider
- it has a wider range (3 times, as opposed to less than 2)
So: how do you get past the physics?
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