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10-12-2017, 03:07 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Thats why they are selling a **** load of them. ha ha.
Maybe, maybe not.

The sales rank on Amazon puts the recently released Fuji MF at meager #4,135 in Camera & Photo (much better than Hasselblad's offering #28,405) but substantially worse than the aging K1 (at #1,253).

BTW, it looks like the K1 sells better than any of Fuji's cameras and it's even outselling the Sony A9.

10-12-2017, 03:27 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
BTW, it looks like the K1 sells better than any of Fuji's cameras and it's even outselling the Sony A9.
I dont doubt it sells more than the $ony 4500 thing,selling more than "any Fuji"....where did you get that from?

I dont understand # number,number???(on Amazon)

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 09:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as the "100 megapixel model," I suppose that is possible
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
- 100 Mpix, 33x44mm (same size as the current 50 Mpix sensor): IMX461
Like RI with the "old 36mp"sensor(K-1)...Fuji joined the MF game with the old 51mp,from the get go they said the mount was aimed at 100mp.
When it comes is unkown but its likely in 12-24months.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 10:04 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I know you really like mirrorless cameras and that is fine, but the most important thing is that the cameras meet the photographer's needs who have purchased them. It doesn't seem like Fuji is there quite yet and I doubt they are going to release a second generation medium format for a year or two.
Well, i like my 3 Pentax Dslrs too....just as much,they are the only WR bodies i use and are keepers.

GFX 100 maybe a 2018 release? Nobody knows yet but there will be more native glass by then too.
10-12-2017, 04:25 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
I dont doubt it sells more than the $ony 4500 thing,selling more than "any Fuji"....where did you get that from?

I dont understand # number,number???(on Amazon)

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 09:51 AM ----------





Like RI with the "old 36mp"sensor(K-1)...Fuji joined the MF game with the old 51mp,from the get go they said the mount was aimed at 100mp.
When it comes is unkown but its likely in 12-24months.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 10:04 AM ----------



Well, i like my 3 Pentax Dslrs too....just as much,they are the only WR bodies i use and are keepers.

GFX 100 maybe a 2018 release? Nobody knows yet but there will be more native glass by then too.
Photoptomist is quoting the product ranking based on sales of the K-1 and GFX on Amazon. It is a proxy for judging sales in the United States, although certainly sales could be different elsewhere.
10-12-2017, 04:38 PM   #34
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I've been going through all your replies and what DxO published and the truth is, I really don't understand why they had to shelve the results unless there is really bad faith.

10-12-2017, 04:51 PM   #35
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DXO Mark has a website that is designed to sell a product -- their software for editing RAW images. The database is based on the tests they run while creating their software. All this is known. I would venture to guess that Pentax is a very small component of their sales and that medium format would be even smaller.

Clearly they decided not to support the 645z for whatever reason. As to why they then didn't release their data, it isn't clear. I don't buy this explanation, but I don't know that Nikon and Sony have a bunch of money sitting around that they will direct DXO Mark's way if they choose not to publish the 645z results. And truthfully, the A7r II score and the D810 for that matter are awfully close -- close enough that if someone were looking at medium format versus full frame they could easily say that the difference wasn't big enough to swing things either direction.
10-12-2017, 05:50 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Clearly they decided not to support the 645z for whatever reason.
RI decided to pay them.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As to why they then didn't release their data, it isn't clear.
It's clear to me. DXO did the test, then knocked at the door of RI and offered to publish the test result for a price. RI said "what? $50 000 for a test gimmick? Are you kidding?", hence DXO withdrew 645z from the tested cameras.
10-12-2017, 09:00 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Photoptomist is quoting the product ranking based on sales of the K-1 and GFX on Amazon. It is a proxy for judging sales in the United States, although certainly sales could be different elsewhere.
Speaking for Japan, the 645z appears to be slightly above the Fuji GFX50 at the moment. This is camera filtered by price over 500,000 yen.
http://s.kakaku.com/camera/digital-slr-camera/itemlist.aspx?pdf_pr=500000-

The K-1 is significantly higher in the ranking, of course, but it has dropped on this ranking since sales were split between the black and silver kit. And also the street price seems to have increased recently.

As for the 645z being replaced soon, I donít think it will happen before a new K-3 type camera is released with next generation autofocus. Both times so far the 645 has received a recycled AF system from the APS-C flagship, and given the woeful state of the competitionís AF systems, this enough to make top the category in that regard, almost by default. So I think Ricoh will follow the same pattern again.

I donít think there is a huge urgency to replace the 645z, because despite all the hype about the Fuji and Hasselblad, the Pentax is still entirely competitive. Even DPR seemed to agree. I was expecting this article to be gushing over the new mirrorless contenders, but it points out a number of areas where the 645z bests the competition.

https://m.dpreview.com/articles/9372980153/fujifilm-gfx-50s-vs-pentax-645z-vs-hasselblad-x1d

Last edited by JPT; 10-12-2017 at 09:12 PM.
10-13-2017, 06:55 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
As for the 645z being replaced soon, I don’t think it will happen before a new K-3 type camera is released with next generation autofocus. Both times so far the 645 has received a recycled AF system from the APS-C flagship, and given the woeful state of the competition’s AF systems, this enough to make top the category in that regard, almost by default. So I think Ricoh will follow the same pattern again.
If the 645z was selling really well in North America we would not have seen a $1,500 price drop recently, unless they need to clear some inventory out of the system to make room for something new. Companies usually don't just lower prices without a reason.

The 645z replacement could get a lot of older technology. IBIS, the K-1 AF would be very good for a MF camera, the new image processing engine..... There are a long list of improvements that have been made since it was released. Improved shutter and mirror box for quieter, vibration free operation. I don't expect to see a new 645 body until the new Sony sensors are released next year, but we could see an announcement very soon. Hopefully the have new 645 lenses as well.

There is less room for improvement on the K-3 replacement. hopefully we see a new BSI sensor, much faster AF, faster overall operation, better image processing, USH-2 and USB 3.1 support, and they mythical hybrid OVF. Automatic lens calibration would be awesome. The K-3 is a still a great camera, its really just needs faster AF to compete with cameras like the D500.

10-13-2017, 06:57 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If the 645z was selling really well in North America we would not have seen a $1,500 price drop recently, unless they need to clear some inventory out of the system to make room for something new. Companies usually don't just lower prices without a reason.
Maybe, maybe not.
Companies lower prices to increase sales, especially after the tech involved has become cheaper through volume sales etc. As the cost of production goes down , as the cost of production gets spread over more and more cameras, high initial mark-ups designed to cover those costs can be reduced. We all know that the 645z sold way over Pentax's expectations, meaning the initial expected production run produced way more cameras than expected. Some companies might just pocket the money, most companies drop prices to reflect current production costs.

Dropping prices can increase market share, and almost every camera drops in price as time goes on.

If the first statement of your premise is flawed, you can usually toss the rest. IN this case the key point being "without reason." The flaw being, you don't have access to all the possible reasons, and have no clue what the reasons for the price drop were. Claiming poor sales has to be it is simply myopic. Claiming it's a negative thing is equally myopic.

It could be a sign, profits on this body have already exceeded expectations and thy are willing to accept less for the camera bodies in order to keep the production line running.. it costs a lot less to keep a line running than it does to set up a new one. Clearly at this point, set up costs have been covered.

Last edited by normhead; 10-13-2017 at 07:13 AM.
10-13-2017, 07:26 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If the 645z was selling really well in North America we would not have seen a $1,500 price drop recently, unless they need to clear some inventory out of the system to make room for something new. Companies usually don't just lower prices without a reason.

The 645z replacement could get a lot of older technology. IBIS, the K-1 AF would be very good for a MF camera, the new image processing engine..... There are a long list of improvements that have been made since it was released. Improved shutter and mirror box for quieter, vibration free operation. I don't expect to see a new 645 body until the new Sony sensors are released next year, but we could see an announcement very soon. Hopefully the have new 645 lenses as well.

There is less room for improvement on the K-3 replacement. hopefully we see a new BSI sensor, much faster AF, faster overall operation, better image processing, USH-2 and USB 3.1 support, and they mythical hybrid OVF. Automatic lens calibration would be awesome. The K-3 is a still a great camera, its really just needs faster AF to compete with cameras like the D500.
I wouldn't be surprised if Pentax did release a 645z sequel. It has been over three years since it was released, Fuji has just released their own camera with similar specs, and overall we have seen very few new product releases recently. It would make sense if Pentax was working on the next generation 645z to put out there.

That said, I would guess that the price drop was specifically targeted at the fact that the GFX's release price was lower than the 645z's price. They just don't want to lose sales to Fuji over price.
10-13-2017, 07:32 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if Pentax did release a 645z sequel. It has been over three years since it was released, Fuji has just released their own camera with similar specs, and overall we have seen very few new product releases recently. It would make sense if Pentax was working on the next generation 645z to put out there.

That said, I would guess that the price drop was specifically targeted at the fact that the GFX's release price was lower than the 645z's price. They just don't want to lose sales to Fuji over price.
Company execs stated earlier that the 645 series was on a 5 year cycle, which was shortened by the release of a new sensor's availability in the last cycle. Without new tech, it's unlikely that they won't return to the 5 year cycle.
10-13-2017, 07:54 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Company execs stated earlier that the 645 series was on a 5 year cycle, which was shortened by the release of a new sensor's availability in the last cycle. Without new tech, it's unlikely that they won't return to the 5 year cycle.
Well, there are new sensors available, new auto focus module that it could share with the K-1, and they could put things like an electronic shutter into place. They certainly could release something fairly easily that overmatched the GFX.

The big question I think going forward is the larger 645 sensor versus staying with the crop. A lot of their older lenses would cover a larger sensor, but I don't think all of the new ones would.
10-13-2017, 08:04 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Well, there are new sensors available, new auto focus module that it could share with the K-1, and they could put things like an electronic shutter into place. They certainly could release something fairly easily that overmatched the GFX.

The big question I think going forward is the larger 645 sensor versus staying with the crop. A lot of their older lenses would cover a larger sensor, but I don't think all of the new ones would.
There hasn't been a k-3 replacement, I would think that would come first, unless the company has abandoned cameras with larger batteries and buffers altogether. I never say the K-70 or K-P as successors to the K-1 because of shorter battery life and smaller buffer. I often fill my buffer. Way more often on the K-1 of course. As long as the K-3 has the biggest buffer available on Pentax, it's my guy. Maybe Pentax is backing off the whole high performance thing, in which case the K-3 will have to last me for years to come.

I'd certainly hope that isn't the case. The K-3's handling of noise is a stop worse than the K-70 and K-P. If they kept everything else and put those things into a K-3 body, that extra stop allows for much shorter exposures on action shots. It belongs on the action camera. Surely Pentax can't have missed that.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 11:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Like RI with the "old 36mp"sensor(K-1)...Fuji joined the MF game with the old 51mp,from the get go they said the mount was aimed at 100mp.
When it comes is unkown but its likely in 12-24months.
Do you suppose with one of these camera they might actually crack the DxO top 50?
So far looking at DxO they seem to produce some really crappy sensors, not even up to K-5 standards.

Meanwhile the "old K-1 " is in fifth place all time... only 2 points behind the A7rII

You seem to be confusing newer with better. Funny how that "old D800E sensor" is still in 5th place beside the K-1. You have to go a long way down to find any Fuji camera mentioned. People have released a lot of newer but not better cameras since the D800e was introduced. Fuji has released a pile of them.

The Canon 51 MP camera is way down the list, more MP doesn't equate to better performance.

Just saying.
One of the big selling points of the 645z is clean images at 6400 ISO. Looking at Imagine Resources, I would characterize the Fuji FGX 50 s, as cleaner than a 845z at 6400 ISO, but the image is noticeably softer. Despite being much newer, it's appears to be more of the same. And the many of us who shot without the AA filter going for more noise but more detail are still going to prefer the 645z, based on a cursory examination of the images.

Last edited by normhead; 10-13-2017 at 08:30 AM.
10-13-2017, 08:14 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
There hasn't been a k-3 replacement, I would think that would come first, unless the company has abandoned cameras with larger batteries and buffers altogether. I never say the K-70 or K-P as successors to the K-1 because of shorter battery life and smaller buffer. I often fill my buffer. Way more often on the K-1 of course. As long as the K-3 has the biggest buffer available on Pentax, it's my guy. Maybe Pentax is backing off the whole high performance thing, in which case the K-3 will have to last me for years to come.

I'd certainly hope that isn't the case. The K-3's handling of noise is a stop worse than the K-70 and K-P. If they kept everything else and put those things into a K-3 body, that extra stop allows for much shorter exposures on action shots. It belongs on the action camera. Surely Pentax can't have missed that.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 11:13 AM ----------



Do you suppose with one of these camera they might actually crack the DxO top 50?
So far looking at DxO they seem to produce some really crappy sensors, not even up to K-5 standards.
I would guess both a K3 and 645z sequel are going to come before next spring, but I have no real info so take it for what it's worth.

DXO Mark doesn't test Fuji sensors due to the fact that they have a non-Bayer sensor array. Those who have used them say that they are very similar in performance to other Bayer cameras with similar megapixel counts.
10-13-2017, 08:40 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would guess both a K3 and 645z sequel are going to come before next spring, but I have no real info so take it for what it's worth.

DXO Mark doesn't test Fuji sensors due to the fact that they have a non-Bayer sensor array. Those who have used them say that they are very similar in performance to other Bayer cameras with similar megapixel counts.
Sony Bayer sensors or Canon Bayer sensors... they score completely differently?
Canon has never cracked the top 10, being similar to Canon sensors on DxO is nothing to brag about.

I went to IR because they test both, I'm not seeing anything that would convince me the Fuji is better. I'm sure if you kill the noise make the 645z image the same, you could have a nice soft image like the Fuji image. At least at 6400 ISO, it's going to have to do better to win over 645z customers at least in terms of IQ.

For die hard Fuji fans, I'm sure it's wonderful, they aren't used to cameras with IQ like that. Pentax users have had them for years. We for the most part are less than excited.
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