DxO score for Pentax 645Z: 101!

**Rondec** · 10-13-2017, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Sony Bayer sensors or Canon Bayer sensors... they score completely differently?
Canon has never cracked the top 10, being similar to Canon sensors on DxO is nothing to brag about.

I went to IR because they test both, I'm not seeing anything that would convince me the Fuji is better. I'm sure if you kill the noise make the 645z image the same, you could have a nice soft image like the Fuji image. At least at 6400 ISO, it's going to have to do better to win over 645z customers at least in terms of IQ.

For die hard Fuji fans, I'm sure it's wonderful, they aren't used to cameras with IQ like that. Pentax users have had them for years. We for the most part are less than excited.

The issue primarily has to do with how things are scored. Canon sensors actually measure up pretty well to Sony sensors above iso 800. They just aren't as good at base iso. But the DXO Mark score values base dynamic range quite a bit (even if things even out at higher iso settings).

When they did test a Fuji Camera in the past they found pretty aggressive iso inflation.

normhead · 10-13-2017, 09:27 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Rondec

They just aren't as good at base iso.

I'd say 90% of my images are shot at base ISO... so that would be huge for me.

**monochrome** · 10-13-2017, 09:34 AM

K-7 -> 05/2009
645D -> 12/2010

K-3 -> 10/2013
645z -> 06/2014

I think the major AF hardware change both times was a new design for the PDAF AF sensor (rather than an upgrade e.g. adding cross-type AF points where there were already Line points) that was simply installed in the 645. A new sensor would have three fladship bodies over which to spread AF sensor costs if a K-1 replacement appeared late 2018 or early 2019. IBIS on a 645 FF (or crop) sensor would be an engineering feat. Everything else is just parts.

.

**Rondec** · 10-13-2017, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by normhead

I'd say 90% of my images are shot at base ISO... so that would be huge for me.

Sure. The Canon 5D MK IV has dynamic range of 13.6 at base iso and the K-1 has 14.6 at base iso. That's worth something, but it certainly isn't a huge difference if everything else is the same.

normhead · 10-13-2017, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

K-7 -> 05/2009
645D -> 12/2010

K-5 09-2012

K-3 -> 10/2015
645z -> 06/2014

It was reported that the K-1 was pushed back a year because the new sensor was available and the 645z was released early.

Prior to that an APS-c flagship was released every 3 years since the introduction of the 645 line up into the product rotation cycle.

With the K-3 released in 2015 (mine was pre-ordered and my first recorded shot is Nov. 2014) , there should be a new APS_c flagship in 2018, unless it was pushed back a year by the 645z and K-1. A four year cycle for that type of camera is way too long.

There's already lots of new tech, especially if the K-1 AF unit can be squeezed in there for more frame coverage by the AF points and definitely the image processing chip employed in th K-70 and K-P needs to be deployed in the flagship.

There have been a lot of improvements in Pentax gear since the K-3. (That makes it particularly infuriating when people compare their old K-7s to some other manufacturers more modern gear and claim its a relevant comparison,) None of them have triggered an early release. The 645z over the D was such a dramatic improvement they couldn't resist. Nothing of that urgency exists in APS-c, at least to my knowledge.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 01:23 PM ----------

Originally posted by Rondec

Sure. The Canon 5D MK IV has dynamic range of 13.6 at base iso and the K-1 has 14.6 at base iso. That's worth something, but it certainly isn't a huge difference if everything else is the same.

On a day like yesterday when my histogram was running off both ends of the scale, I'll take it just for control. The images may end up looking the same after PP, but that will be my choice, not a limitation of the camera.

I can compromise on features like AF etc. which I rarely even need, to get top quality IQ from the images I do get. A buddy of mine switched from a 5D mk II to a Nikon D810, don't ever tell him the switch isn't worth it. He paid $5000 to switch after selling his Canon gear and he's still over the moon over it. He's a full time craft show vender, not an amateur with an amateur opinion.

**Rondec** · 10-13-2017, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by normhead

It was reported that the K-1 was pushed back a year because the new sensor was available and the 645z was released early.

Prior to that an APS-c flagship was released every 3 years since the introduction of the 645 line up into the product rotation cycle.

With the K-3 released in 2015 (mine was pre-ordered and my first recorded shot is Nov. 2014) , there should be a new APS_c flagship in 2018, unless it was pushed back a year by the 645z and K-1. A four year cycle for that type of camera is way too long.

There's already lots of new tech, especially if the K-1 AF unit can be squeezed in there for more frame coverage by the AF points and definitely the image processing chip employed in th K-70 and K-P needs to be deployed in the flagship.

There have been a lot of improvements in Pentax gear since the K-3. (That makes it particularly infuriating when people compare their old K-7s to some other manufacturers more modern gear and claim its a relevant comparison,) None of them have triggered an early release. The 645z over the D was such a dramatic improvement they couldn't resist. Nothing of that urgency exists in APS-c, at least to my knowledge.

---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 01:23 PM ----------

On a day like yesterday when my histogram was running off both ends of the scale, I'll take it just for control. The images may end up looking the same after PP, but that will be my choice, not a limitation of the camera.

I can compromise on features like AF etc. which I rarely even need, to get top quality IQ from the images I do get. A buddy of mine switched from a 5D mk II to a Nikon D810, don't ever tell him the switch isn't worth it. He paid $5000 to switch after selling his Canon gear and he's still over the moon over it. He's a full time craft show vender, not an amateur with an amateur opinion.

Not arguing. I like my K-1 and would hate to have less dynamic range. I'm just saying that Canon has narrowed the gap recently.

normhead · 10-13-2017, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Not arguing. I like my K-1 and would hate to have less dynamic range. I'm just saying that Canon has narrowed the gap recently.

That's a good thing really. I know so many Canon togs who got a huge frown on their faced every time someone else said 'Dynamic range... these guys are committed Canon users from ages ago and aren't going to switch brands. They deserve to have a camera. After all, Canon is huge company that claims to have something for everyone. Their DR performance before recent arrivals has been dismal.

surfar · 10-13-2017, 12:28 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

I don't believe a word DxO says

---------- Post added 10-14-17 at 06:31 AM ----------

Originally posted by normhead

So far looking at DxO they seem to produce some really crappy sensors

Who would believe a word that those people say?

fg-one · 10-13-2017, 01:12 PM

Knowing that DXOmark have still not published any result for the K70, let alone the KP, I'm not sure I am ready to buy their explanation for the 645Z...

reh321 · 10-13-2017, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by surfar

Who would believe a word that those people say?

If they had officially published the 645Z scoring, then Nikon wouldn't have been to have their great "first at 100"party.

surfar · 10-13-2017, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by reh321

"first at 100"party.

Well the 101 party was kinda short with not many inviteees!

angerdan · 10-13-2017, 01:55 PM

About two years Pentax 645Z was the only member of the 101 club

Now they even removed all test results:
Pentax 645Z vs Pentax 645D

rawr · 10-13-2017, 02:32 PM

Now would seem a good time for DxO to do a 51MP MF shoot-out - 645Z, Hasselblad X1D, Fujifilm GFX 50S.

Originally posted by fg-one

Knowing that DXOmark have still not published any result for the K70, let alone the KP

A pity they've been so tardy on this too. I'm particularly interested in what the impact of the K-P's 'Accelerator Unit' chip has been on the DR and SNR curves for the K-P.

Na Horuk · 10-13-2017, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

Can someone explain how the sigma 18-35 can have a t score of: 1.8 on d90, 2 on d5300, and 2.3 on d500, and d200 1.9? Is this cell walls?

This is pretty standard for DXo. I looked at DA 40mm SMC, HD, and XS version. On some cameras, the XS is best. On others, the HD is best. Not only do their scores change, but their ranking order changes as well.
DXo is ultimately pretty useless information. You can get better info from many other review sites, where they just test the essentials like CA, chroma, distortion, resolution, and then you decide if the results are acceptable or not. Lenstip, Photozone, various magazines, and even this forum have reviews that are good enough for most photographers.

DXo reviews imply easy ranking and objective results, but they don't actually deliver that. Many other sources give reviews that are just as valuable

surfar · 10-13-2017, 04:49 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Na Horuk

DXo is ultimately pretty useless information

Yes, i wouldnt believe a word they say.I think some others may agree!

Originally posted by Na Horuk

this forum have reviews that are good enough for most photographers.

This forum is GREAT for researching things one is considering buying because the reviewers KNOW how to use a Pentax.

10-13-2017, 10:12 AM	#50
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by monochrome K-7 -> 05/2009 645D -> 12/2010 K-5 09-2012 K-3 -> 10/2015 645z -> 06/2014 It was reported that the K-1 was pushed back a year because the new sensor was available and the 645z was released early. Prior to that an APS-c flagship was released every 3 years since the introduction of the 645 line up into the product rotation cycle. With the K-3 released in 2015 (mine was pre-ordered and my first recorded shot is Nov. 2014) , there should be a new APS_c flagship in 2018, unless it was pushed back a year by the 645z and K-1. A four year cycle for that type of camera is way too long. There's already lots of new tech, especially if the K-1 AF unit can be squeezed in there for more frame coverage by the AF points and definitely the image processing chip employed in th K-70 and K-P needs to be deployed in the flagship. There have been a lot of improvements in Pentax gear since the K-3. (That makes it particularly infuriating when people compare their old K-7s to some other manufacturers more modern gear and claim its a relevant comparison,) None of them have triggered an early release. The 645z over the D was such a dramatic improvement they couldn't resist. Nothing of that urgency exists in APS-c, at least to my knowledge. ---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 01:23 PM ---------- Originally posted by Rondec Sure. The Canon 5D MK IV has dynamic range of 13.6 at base iso and the K-1 has 14.6 at base iso. That's worth something, but it certainly isn't a huge difference if everything else is the same. On a day like yesterday when my histogram was running off both ends of the scale, I'll take it just for control. The images may end up looking the same after PP, but that will be my choice, not a limitation of the camera. I can compromise on features like AF etc. which I rarely even need, to get top quality IQ from the images I do get. A buddy of mine switched from a 5D mk II to a Nikon D810, don't ever tell him the switch isn't worth it. He paid $5000 to switch after selling his Canon gear and he's still over the moon over it. He's a full time craft show vender, not an amateur with an amateur opinion. Last edited by normhead; 10-13-2017 at 10:32 AM.

10-13-2017, 01:55 PM	#57
angerdan Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,642	About two years Pentax 645Z was the only member of the 101 club Now they even removed all test results: Pentax 645Z vs Pentax 645D Last edited by angerdan; 10-26-2017 at 08:18 AM.

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10-13-2017, 09:02 AM	#46
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,662	Originally posted by normhead Sony Bayer sensors or Canon Bayer sensors... they score completely differently? Canon has never cracked the top 10, being similar to Canon sensors on DxO is nothing to brag about. I went to IR because they test both, I'm not seeing anything that would convince me the Fuji is better. I'm sure if you kill the noise make the 645z image the same, you could have a nice soft image like the Fuji image. At least at 6400 ISO, it's going to have to do better to win over 645z customers at least in terms of IQ. For die hard Fuji fans, I'm sure it's wonderful, they aren't used to cameras with IQ like that. Pentax users have had them for years. We for the most part are less than excited. The issue primarily has to do with how things are scored. Canon sensors actually measure up pretty well to Sony sensors above iso 800. They just aren't as good at base iso. But the DXO Mark score values base dynamic range quite a bit (even if things even out at higher iso settings). When they did test a Fuji Camera in the past they found pretty aggressive iso inflation.

10-13-2017, 09:27 AM - 1 Like	#47
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Rondec They just aren't as good at base iso. I'd say 90% of my images are shot at base ISO... so that would be huge for me.

10-13-2017, 09:34 AM	#48
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	K-7 -> 05/2009 645D -> 12/2010 K-3 -> 10/2013 645z -> 06/2014 I think the major AF hardware change both times was a new design for the PDAF AF sensor (rather than an upgrade e.g. adding cross-type AF points where there were already Line points) that was simply installed in the 645. A new sensor would have three fladship bodies over which to spread AF sensor costs if a K-1 replacement appeared late 2018 or early 2019. IBIS on a 645 FF (or crop) sensor would be an engineering feat. Everything else is just parts. .

10-13-2017, 10:09 AM	#49
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,662	Originally posted by normhead I'd say 90% of my images are shot at base ISO... so that would be huge for me. Sure. The Canon 5D MK IV has dynamic range of 13.6 at base iso and the K-1 has 14.6 at base iso. That's worth something, but it certainly isn't a huge difference if everything else is the same.

10-13-2017, 11:27 AM	#51
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,662	Originally posted by normhead It was reported that the K-1 was pushed back a year because the new sensor was available and the 645z was released early. Prior to that an APS-c flagship was released every 3 years since the introduction of the 645 line up into the product rotation cycle. With the K-3 released in 2015 (mine was pre-ordered and my first recorded shot is Nov. 2014) , there should be a new APS_c flagship in 2018, unless it was pushed back a year by the 645z and K-1. A four year cycle for that type of camera is way too long. There's already lots of new tech, especially if the K-1 AF unit can be squeezed in there for more frame coverage by the AF points and definitely the image processing chip employed in th K-70 and K-P needs to be deployed in the flagship. There have been a lot of improvements in Pentax gear since the K-3. (That makes it particularly infuriating when people compare their old K-7s to some other manufacturers more modern gear and claim its a relevant comparison,) None of them have triggered an early release. The 645z over the D was such a dramatic improvement they couldn't resist. Nothing of that urgency exists in APS-c, at least to my knowledge. ---------- Post added 10-13-17 at 01:23 PM ---------- On a day like yesterday when my histogram was running off both ends of the scale, I'll take it just for control. The images may end up looking the same after PP, but that will be my choice, not a limitation of the camera. I can compromise on features like AF etc. which I rarely even need, to get top quality IQ from the images I do get. A buddy of mine switched from a 5D mk II to a Nikon D810, don't ever tell him the switch isn't worth it. He paid $5000 to switch after selling his Canon gear and he's still over the moon over it. He's a full time craft show vender, not an amateur with an amateur opinion. Not arguing. I like my K-1 and would hate to have less dynamic range. I'm just saying that Canon has narrowed the gap recently.

10-13-2017, 11:53 AM	#52
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Rondec Not arguing. I like my K-1 and would hate to have less dynamic range. I'm just saying that Canon has narrowed the gap recently. That's a good thing really. I know so many Canon togs who got a huge frown on their faced every time someone else said 'Dynamic range... these guys are committed Canon users from ages ago and aren't going to switch brands. They deserve to have a camera. After all, Canon is huge company that claims to have something for everyone. Their DR performance before recent arrivals has been dismal.

10-13-2017, 12:28 PM - 1 Like	#53
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142	Originally posted by normhead I don't believe a word DxO says ---------- Post added 10-14-17 at 06:31 AM ---------- Originally posted by normhead So far looking at DxO they seem to produce some really crappy sensors Who would believe a word that those people say?

10-13-2017, 01:12 PM	#54
fg-one Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 293	Knowing that DXOmark have still not published any result for the K70, let alone the KP, I'm not sure I am ready to buy their explanation for the 645Z...

10-13-2017, 01:15 PM	#55
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by surfar Who would believe a word that those people say? If they had officially published the 645Z scoring, then Nikon wouldn't have been to have their great "first at 100"party.

10-13-2017, 01:27 PM	#56
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142	Originally posted by reh321 "first at 100"party. Well the 101 party was kinda short with not many inviteees!

10-13-2017, 02:32 PM	#58
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Now would seem a good time for DxO to do a 51MP MF shoot-out - 645Z, Hasselblad X1D, Fujifilm GFX 50S. Originally posted by fg-one Knowing that DXOmark have still not published any result for the K70, let alone the KP A pity they've been so tardy on this too. I'm particularly interested in what the impact of the K-P's 'Accelerator Unit' chip has been on the DR and SNR curves for the K-P.

10-13-2017, 04:14 PM	#59
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Originally posted by swanlefitte Can someone explain how the sigma 18-35 can have a t score of: 1.8 on d90, 2 on d5300, and 2.3 on d500, and d200 1.9? Is this cell walls? This is pretty standard for DXo. I looked at DA 40mm SMC, HD, and XS version. On some cameras, the XS is best. On others, the HD is best. Not only do their scores change, but their ranking order changes as well. DXo is ultimately pretty useless information. You can get better info from many other review sites, where they just test the essentials like CA, chroma, distortion, resolution, and then you decide if the results are acceptable or not. Lenstip, Photozone, various magazines, and even this forum have reviews that are good enough for most photographers. DXo reviews imply easy ranking and objective results, but they don't actually deliver that. Many other sources give reviews that are just as valuable

10-13-2017, 04:49 PM - 1 Like	#60
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142	Originally posted by Na Horuk DXo is ultimately pretty useless information Yes, i wouldnt believe a word they say.I think some others may agree! Originally posted by Na Horuk this forum have reviews that are good enough for most photographers. This forum is GREAT for researching things one is considering buying because the reviewers KNOW how to use a Pentax.