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11-05-2017, 05:20 PM   #31
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This would allow rear tilt with a DSLR camera. Like I can do with a proper monorail or view camera with my 4x5" setup. Very very useful feature - one can create wide angle type near-far relations with longer lenses than wide angles.

Like so: http://www.toyoview.com/LargeFrmtTech/lgformat.html

Check the bottom of the page. Absolutely killer feature for landscapers and other suitable cases.

11-05-2017, 06:40 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug.
The linhof technika cameras all have movements which are difficult to employ and more limited compared to a monorail camera, but that didn't stop the technika from being popular.

Being able to use T/S capability with any lens* would be a very popular ability.

* image circle size is an important factor though.
11-05-2017, 07:49 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
Different 'tilt'. As I understand it, all the current movements of of SR keep the sensor in the same plane, up/down, left/right, and 'tilt' aka rotate around the lens axis (edit- I think they refer to this movement as 'Roll"). This is a new 'tilt' that makes the sensor leave its usual focal plane. See Using Tilt-Shift Lenses to Control Depth of Field and the bit about "SCHEIMPFLUG PRINCIPLE & HINGE RULE", though it's a bit different since the sensor and not the lens is doing the tilting.
Exactly right.

What's confusing about IBIS is that the system does correct for pitch and yaw tilting motions of the camera and lens but it only corrects the lateral shifting of the image across the sensor created by tilt but does not correct for any change in the plane of focus.

The Scheimpflug principle effects of tilting the sensor could be pretty useful for wide angle lenses.

Even a modest 1 mm tilt of the sensor would provide a powerful tilting of the plane of focus for architectural photography. A 24 mm lens with a 1 mm sensor tilt could have infinity focus at the top of the frame and about a 0.6 meter foreground focus at the bottom of the frame.

The effect weakens rapidly with longer focal lengths. A 50 mm lens with a 1 mm sensor tilt could have infinity focus at the top of the frame and a 2.6 meter foreground focus at the bottom of the frame. A 100 mm lens with a 1 mm sensor tilt could have infinity focus at the top of the frame and a 10 meter foreground focus at the bottom of the frame.
11-06-2017, 07:30 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The linhof technika cameras all have movements which are difficult to employ and more limited compared to a monorail camera, but that didn't stop the technika from being popular.

Being able to use T/S capability with any lens* would be a very popular ability.

* image circle size is an important factor though.
Yes, image circle size issues are a major challenge for tilting lenses because tilting the lens causes the image circle to move laterally across the sensor.

In contrast, a nice feature of a tilting sensor is that it can be designed to ALWAYS stay within the image circle of the lens. If the default location of the sensor is all the way forward at the focal register plane (the plane of focus if the lens is set for infinity), then tilting the sensor backwards will bring parts of the foreground into focus but the sensor will stay in the cone of the image circle.

11-06-2017, 07:50 AM   #35
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So - implementation is an interesting thing - the sensor in the patent illustration looks to me to be the shape of a 645 sensor (1:1.33) not an APS-C or FF sensor (1:1.5)
11-06-2017, 12:59 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
So - implementation is an interesting thing - the sensor in the patent illustration looks to me to be the shape of a 645 sensor (1:1.33) not an APS-C or FF sensor (1:1.5)
It might induce something but it might not as well.
Often Pentax patents concerning e.g. K10D or later were illustrated with istD schemas. This is just to avoid competitors getting free heads-up.

It might also represent the reality, indeed.
11-06-2017, 01:32 PM - 2 Likes   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
So - implementation is an interesting thing - the sensor in the patent illustration looks to me to be the shape of a 645 sensor (1:1.33)
I prefer to think of that as the shape of a Q sensor.
11-06-2017, 03:14 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
So - implementation is an interesting thing - the sensor in the patent illustration looks to me to be the shape of a 645 sensor (1:1.33) not an APS-C or FF sensor (1:1.5)
Camera movements make more sense on the 645z as tilting sensor would reduce DOF limitations from a fixed focal plane.

11-06-2017, 03:44 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Camera movements make more sense on the 645z as tilting sensor would reduce DOF limitations from a fixed focal plane.
It's speculation (plus a little logic), but some people here reckon that there will be a new APS-C first, then a new 645, then a new FF. It would be great to see this tech in a new 645 next year then making an appearance in the next FF a year later - give or take. Whether it works will all the other sensor movements in FF is another matter, but I can't see why not in theory. An interesting possibility for another reason to buy Pentax
11-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
It's speculation (plus a little logic), but some people here reckon that there will be a new APS-C first, then a new 645, then a new FF. It would be great to see this tech in a new 645 next year then making an appearance in the next FF a year later - give or take. Whether it works will all the other sensor movements in FF is another matter, but I can't see why not in theory. An interesting possibility for another reason to buy Pentax
Good chance that if implimented, it's going to have to be used in manual mode/a.f. disabled seeing that the autofocus may not be that accurate with it in use. But it would be interssting to see it in a future 645/FF/apsc release.
11-06-2017, 11:36 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
it's going to have to be used in manual mode/a.f. disabled seeing that the autofocus may not be that accurate with it in use.
I agree, The Canon TS-E and Nikkor PC-E lenses are all manual focus only. I'd suspect even the slightest amount of Tilt would play merry hell with contrast and phase AF.
11-07-2017, 07:29 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I agree, The Canon TS-E and Nikkor PC-E lenses are all manual focus only. I'd suspect even the slightest amount of Tilt would play merry hell with contrast and phase AF.
Actually, pure tilt isn't so bad -- the rays from the center of the lens to the center of the sensor are still nice and perpendicular to the sensor. It's really no different than attempting to AF a brick wall at an angle.

On the other hand, any shift of the exit pupil beyond a few mm (the exact number depends on the lens aperture and PDAF aperture) is wholly incompatible with both DSLR and on-sensor PDAF because it blacks-out one half of the phase contrast system.

CDAF should work all right with both tilt and shift although it might be a bit slower or hunt a bit more because any advanced analysis of the blur to predict the required AF motion would be confounded by the strange behavior of blur circles in a T/S lens relative to a normal lens.

There's also the issue that when these T/S lenses were originally designed there was no cost effective way to have a mechanical drive train that could connect the camera body AF motor to the tilted/shifted focus assembly.
11-07-2017, 07:49 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
So - implementation is an interesting thing - the sensor in the patent illustration looks to me to be the shape of a 645 sensor (1:1.33) not an APS-C or FF sensor (1:1.5)
As I have said before, I think we will see IBIS and pixel shift on the next 645 body and possibly this tilt/shift technology. IBIS is a core technology for Pentax and it only makes sense to implement that technology in all of their lines. Adding pixel shift and this tilt/shift would give Ricoh a very real advantage over key medium format competitors.

If Ricoh can shrink down the 645 body like they have done with the K-mount lines, improve the shutter/mirror/OVF, and of course improve the auto-focus they will do very well against upper end DSLRs.
11-08-2017, 08:41 AM   #44
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A tilting sensor also opens the door to unsharp images. In the old days anytime a Pentax film camera was sent in for repair, the lens mount and film plane were checked and often adjusted for the proper distance and parallelism. Making sure this new tilting system locks at the perfect neutral position when not tiltng is very important.
Thanks,
barondla
11-10-2017, 01:19 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If Ricoh can shrink down the 645 body like they have done with the K-mount lines, improve the shutter/mirror/OVF, and of course improve the auto-focus they will do very well against upper end DSLRs.
I honestly can't see how this can be done, look at the original 645 film cameras: upwards of 90% of the displacement of the camera is the mirror box.

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Actually, pure tilt isn't so bad -- the rays from the center of the lens to the center of the sensor are still nice and perpendicular to the sensor. It's really no different than attempting to AF a brick wall at an angle.
Well using PDAF is out of the question with sensor based tilt, we would only be able to see the effect through live view - in which case CDAF or on-sensor PDAF will be in use. I seem to recall PDAF sensors having problems with detecting phase differential when light rays strike them at sharp angles of incidence.
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