Latest Pentax patent for a "Tilting Sensor"

disconnekt · 10-24-2017, 09:31 PM - **1 Like**

Not sure if this is the correct thread to add this post to, so sorry in advanced if not.

Not sure if anyone else has seen this but it seems Pentax patented a "tilting sensor" for Dslr's:
The latest Ricoh patents (tilting sensor) | Pentax Rumors

Seem's really interesting.

cmohr · 10-24-2017, 09:43 PM

Hmmm, interesting, no need for big aperture lenses for shallow depth of feild and be able to correct perspective on wideangles , just tilt the sensor to create effects. Seems cool. idea.

biz-engineer · 10-24-2017, 10:17 PM

Would that mean tilt & shift capability with any lens? If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters.

rawr · 10-24-2017, 10:23 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters.

Tilting sensor + pixel-shift would be awesome for that.

stevebrot · 10-25-2017, 12:10 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by cmohr

Hmmm, interesting, no need for big aperture lenses for shallow depth of feild and be able to correct perspective on wideangles , just tilt the sensor to create effects. Seems cool. idea.

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Would that mean tilt & shift capability with any lens? If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters.

Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest.

Steve

yucafrita · 10-25-2017, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest.

Steve

Is this easier achievable in a 645? I mean, the mirror box is huge so there is more space to accomodate a larger sensor movement. Just guessing, since I dont know anything about that... However, wouldnt it be easier to have a tilt/shift lens put on the lens map? Maybe this sensor-thing is for astrotracer?

HYS · 10-25-2017, 12:47 AM

Does it means an partly fulfilling of the Scheimpflug condition?

Na Horuk · 10-25-2017, 04:41 AM

oh em gee :O

That would be really cool. In-sensor DoF control, tilt correction..

totsmuyco · 10-25-2017, 04:54 AM

I'm not a technical person, is it suppose to be good?

solitudebound · 10-25-2017, 10:05 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by stevebrot

Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest.

Steve

Steve the tilt design does come across as something somewhat similar to the curved sensors that are currently being debated all be it you need special lenses for curved sensors. The tilt might be an aid for AF but Pentax Prime processor is already taxed enough as it is without adding another feature and Pentax really does need to stop avoiding their AF problems. Landscapes and portraits i don't really need AF but better DOF oh yes indeed.

I hope the tilt is not like Canon's pixel priority option where you can select which persons eye will be in focus. The difference is so minimal that it's a feature that seems useless.

zapp · 10-25-2017, 10:15 AM

Looks like the community is not ready for either tilt or shift.

This feature may help in APS-C cameras with K-mount as full frame lenses cover more than the APS-C sensor area. Otherwise you need new lenses as well - or get a fullframe camera instead of a APS-C with shift feature.

solitudebound · 10-25-2017, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by zapp

Looks like the community is not ready for either tilt or shift.

This feature may help in APS-C cameras with K-mount as full frame lenses cover more than the APS-C sensor area. Otherwise you need new lenses as well - or get a fullframe camera instead of a APS-C with shift feature.

True enough. Although the amount of tilt would be a factor and the size of the light footprint over the sensor would also have to be taken into consideration. Fujifilm is already struggling with this and adding IBIS to it's x-trans cameras.

There was a camera i followed a while back. It looked like a colored piece of square plastic tubing but it took one image but with two or three focus ranges. Just in front, the subject, and just in back. It's similar to focus tacking but in a single shot. The results looked almost holographic. I think the camera has since evolved into a more dslr like form but not much more info than that.

Na Horuk · 10-25-2017, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by solitudebound

There was a camera i followed a while back. It looked like a colored piece of square plastic tubing but it took one image but with two or three focus ranges. Just in front, the subject, and just in back. It's similar to focus tacking but in a single shot. The results looked almost holographic. I think the camera has since evolved into a more dslr like form but not much more info than that.

You probably mean Lytro, but that's a light field camera, so I think its a bit different.
Pentax cameras already have shift option, which can be helpful. It might mean you don't need to buy a rather expensive shift lens. If they add tilt, it can do some interesting stuff, because shifting lens and sensor can actually change the image in big ways. Most famous thing right now is making real life landscapes look like miniatures using tilt. But it has other uses, especially concerning DoF in macro range, using it for architecture photography and others

stevebrot · 10-25-2017, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

You probably mean Lytro, but that's a light field camera, so I think its a bit different.

Yes, quite a bit different and very inexpensive to buy at present. The company has moved into the realm of virtual reality video.

Steve

stevebrot · 10-25-2017, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by solitudebound

he tilt might be an aid for AF but Pentax Prime processor is already taxed enough as it is without adding another feature and Pentax really does need to stop avoiding their AF problems. Landscapes and portraits i don't really need AF but better DOF oh yes indeed.

I don't know if tilt would improve CDAF or even impact it at all.* The subject of perspective and focus management using camera/lens movements is pretty complicated and I will admit that it was not until I actually got to spend some time with a view camera that I came to appreciate even the basics of how it works. As noted above, I find the idea intriguing. With any luck such a feature might work better than the anemic composition shift feature currently available for shift-lens emulation.

Steve

* I wrote CDAF since the tilt feature is sensor-based and must be used in Live View in order to see what one is doing

10-24-2017, 09:31 PM - 1 Like	#1
disconnekt Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: SoCal/I.E. Photos: Albums Posts: 1,701	Latest Pentax patent for a "Tilting Sensor" Not sure if this is the correct thread to add this post to, so sorry in advanced if not. Not sure if anyone else has seen this but it seems Pentax patented a "tilting sensor" for Dslr's: The latest Ricoh patents (tilting sensor) \| Pentax Rumors Seem's really interesting.

10-25-2017, 10:05 AM - 1 Like	#10
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	Originally posted by stevebrot Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest. Steve Steve the tilt design does come across as something somewhat similar to the curved sensors that are currently being debated all be it you need special lenses for curved sensors. The tilt might be an aid for AF but Pentax Prime processor is already taxed enough as it is without adding another feature and Pentax really does need to stop avoiding their AF problems. Landscapes and portraits i don't really need AF but better DOF oh yes indeed. I hope the tilt is not like Canon's pixel priority option where you can select which persons eye will be in focus. The difference is so minimal that it's a feature that seems useless. Last edited by solitudebound; 10-25-2017 at 10:22 AM.

10-25-2017, 10:26 AM	#12
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	Originally posted by zapp Looks like the community is not ready for either tilt or shift. This feature may help in APS-C cameras with K-mount as full frame lenses cover more than the APS-C sensor area. Otherwise you need new lenses as well - or get a fullframe camera instead of a APS-C with shift feature. True enough. Although the amount of tilt would be a factor and the size of the light footprint over the sensor would also have to be taken into consideration. Fujifilm is already struggling with this and adding IBIS to it's x-trans cameras. There was a camera i followed a while back. It looked like a colored piece of square plastic tubing but it took one image but with two or three focus ranges. Just in front, the subject, and just in back. It's similar to focus tacking but in a single shot. The results looked almost holographic. I think the camera has since evolved into a more dslr like form but not much more info than that. Last edited by solitudebound; 10-25-2017 at 10:39 AM.

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10-24-2017, 09:43 PM	#2
cmohr Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Brisbane. Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,824	Hmmm, interesting, no need for big aperture lenses for shallow depth of feild and be able to correct perspective on wideangles , just tilt the sensor to create effects. Seems cool. idea.

10-24-2017, 10:17 PM	#3
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,242	Would that mean tilt & shift capability with any lens? If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters.

10-24-2017, 10:23 PM - 2 Likes	#4
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by biz-engineer If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters. Tilting sensor + pixel-shift would be awesome for that.

10-25-2017, 12:10 AM - 1 Like	#5
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by cmohr Hmmm, interesting, no need for big aperture lenses for shallow depth of feild and be able to correct perspective on wideangles , just tilt the sensor to create effects. Seems cool. idea. Originally posted by biz-engineer Would that mean tilt & shift capability with any lens? If so, that would make a unique value proposition for archi shooters. Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest. Steve

10-25-2017, 12:33 AM	#6
yucafrita Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 459	Originally posted by stevebrot Shift is useful, tilt not so much. Where tilt is useful is for near/far management of the plane of focus. For that case, the perspective distortion associated with a sensor plane (back axis) tilt is not our friend. I very much doubt that they can control sufficient tilt to accomplish any but mild Scheimpflug. But if so, I would expect that such a feature would be limited to a FF camera in crop mode using FF lenses and would be live view only. I can imagine some interesting automation if coupled with a touch screen. E.g. designate two or three points in the frame to designate the plane of focus and let the camera do the rest. Steve Is this easier achievable in a 645? I mean, the mirror box is huge so there is more space to accomodate a larger sensor movement. Just guessing, since I dont know anything about that... However, wouldnt it be easier to have a tilt/shift lens put on the lens map? Maybe this sensor-thing is for astrotracer?

10-25-2017, 12:47 AM	#7
HYS Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 377	Does it means an partly fulfilling of the Scheimpflug condition?

10-25-2017, 04:41 AM	#8
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	oh em gee :O That would be really cool. In-sensor DoF control, tilt correction..

10-25-2017, 04:54 AM	#9
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	I'm not a technical person, is it suppose to be good?

10-25-2017, 10:15 AM	#11
zapp Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,388	Looks like the community is not ready for either tilt or shift. This feature may help in APS-C cameras with K-mount as full frame lenses cover more than the APS-C sensor area. Otherwise you need new lenses as well - or get a fullframe camera instead of a APS-C with shift feature.

10-25-2017, 11:06 AM	#13
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Originally posted by solitudebound There was a camera i followed a while back. It looked like a colored piece of square plastic tubing but it took one image but with two or three focus ranges. Just in front, the subject, and just in back. It's similar to focus tacking but in a single shot. The results looked almost holographic. I think the camera has since evolved into a more dslr like form but not much more info than that. You probably mean Lytro, but that's a light field camera, so I think its a bit different. Pentax cameras already have shift option, which can be helpful. It might mean you don't need to buy a rather expensive shift lens. If they add tilt, it can do some interesting stuff, because shifting lens and sensor can actually change the image in big ways. Most famous thing right now is making real life landscapes look like miniatures using tilt. But it has other uses, especially concerning DoF in macro range, using it for architecture photography and others

10-25-2017, 11:30 AM	#14
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Na Horuk You probably mean Lytro, but that's a light field camera, so I think its a bit different. Yes, quite a bit different and very inexpensive to buy at present. The company has moved into the realm of virtual reality video. Steve

10-25-2017, 11:49 AM	#15
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by solitudebound he tilt might be an aid for AF but Pentax Prime processor is already taxed enough as it is without adding another feature and Pentax really does need to stop avoiding their AF problems. Landscapes and portraits i don't really need AF but better DOF oh yes indeed. I don't know if tilt would improve CDAF or even impact it at all.* The subject of perspective and focus management using camera/lens movements is pretty complicated and I will admit that it was not until I actually got to spend some time with a view camera that I came to appreciate even the basics of how it works. As noted above, I find the idea intriguing. With any luck such a feature might work better than the anemic composition shift feature currently available for shift-lens emulation. Steve * I wrote CDAF since the tilt feature is sensor-based and must be used in Live View in order to see what one is doing