[Dan Rentea]

There are different ways to do the same thing. One is not right nor the other wrong. It takes minimal time to spin the third wheel and you can see the change in the viewfinder very easily. If you are shooting manual mode, it is quite simple to have front dial set to shutter speed, back dial to aperture and top dial to iso. Certainly there are ways you can do that. Certainly having the third control wheel doesn't mean you have to use it.

It really does bother me where someone says that just because they don't use a feature that no one would use it. Better to leave it off. In fact, probably better to get a Canon since I hear the ways they do things are perfect.

You don't have to be so offensive because I didn't said that Canon is better or worse. I use Canon, but I shoot quite often with Nikon, Fuji, Sony and from time to time with Pentax. 2 dedicated buttons (ISO and exposure compensation) are already in perfect position. The other function from the third dial are not necesary needed on the fly. That's why a customisable "my menu" which is found not only on Canon bodies is in my opinion more useful than the third wheel because I can put in that menu 6 or 12 most used settings and access them with one click. And if my preferences changes next month, I can reconfigure My menu to suite my needs.

This way I have more control and I can benefit also from a larger top screen.

[monochrome]

I don’t want, don’t need and don’t use 90% of the technology on a new car (Nav, rear camera, warning sensors, digital music, etc.) but it’s there. I can operate a car just fine without using it, and apparently other people do want that stuff - so there you go.

[Dan Rentea]

I don’t want, don’t need and don’t use 90% of the technology on a new car (Nav, rear camera, warning sensors, digital music, etc.) but it’s there. I can operate a car just fine without using it, and apparently other people do want that stuff - so there you go.

It seems to me that some comments are being made based on the sympathy or on the antipathy for the person that say something different regarding his needs/wishes/opinions for a camera that theoretically should come sooner or later.

We're talking about the K3 Mark II replacement and each and everyone said what he want from the new camera and some provided some arguments.

@monochrome, I understood your argument and I wouldn't have anything to say (on the contrary, I would agree with you completly) if the new technology that you reffered to would not replace or reduce another functionality that for me it's more important. In this particular case, a third wheel will reduce the functionality of the top screen which I find it very useful. K3 Mark II canceled the opportunity to use the small flash as a controller for off camera flashes by removing the on camera flash. I wasn't enthusiastic about having a GPS (which I never use) instead of the flash. It's a different thing to add new technology and keeping also the useful functions and it's a different thing to add technology by replacing or reducing the functionality of other functions already available and usefull on older models.

@rondec, you choosed to ignore my sugestions and focused on contradict me without a real argument and you added a little salt and peper to spice up the topic by adding Canon in the conversation in order to leave a wrong idea to the people who read these comments. Let me clarify it for you.
1. I find the top LCD important and having it as large as it is right now on K-3 Mark II is handy.
2. I find useless the third wheel and as I told to monochrome, I wouldn't care about it as long as is not affecting something that I find usefull (in this case the large top LCD). But it does affect it and so I expressed my wishes and I also offered 2 features that I would like to have on the K3 Mark III instead of that wheel. My suggestions were:
- adding a customisable My menu (Sony shooters screamed all over the internet regarding this feature and Sony listened and they implemented it in their latest models) and leave the top LCD as large as it is
- ad a touchscreen which will make the My menu function even easier to operate

You acted offended and you said "It really does bother me where someone says that just because they don't use a feature that no one would use it." I could say the same thing about this affirmation of yours; I quote you "Who cares if there are 24 or 28 or just 20 megapixels on the sensor as long as the overall performance is excellent. For me, excellent means high dynamic range at base iso and the ability to keep that (along with low noise) at higher isos.".

Maybe it does bother me when someone says that just because they don't care if the new camera has 20, 28 or 40mp as long as it has excellent overall performance (dynamic range in your case). Why? Maybe because I do care about the number of MP of the new camera. Maybe I do want a 40mp camera because I have the option to crop when needed or to print large when a client demands a large print. Or maybe I do want a 20mp camera instead of a 28 or 40mp camera because I don't want to invest in a new computer to deal with big files, or because a camera with lots of MP will not be forgiving with my lenses or with slightly human errors. Those action cameras (D500, D5, 7D Mark II/1Dx Mark II, A9, A6500) have few MP for certain reasons... And as much as D850 is considered to have excelent overall performance, I would not want it if I have to choose between it and a D5 for wildlife or sports, even if D5 would have had 7fps. Why? Because the af is better on D5, high ISO is better, color accuracy is better, and so on.

So you see, the lack or the presence of a third wheel may be a lot less important than the number of MP of the new camera. But I didn't "jumped to your neck" saying that I'm offended that you didn't thought at the others when you just expresed your thoughts and wishes.

I also do find offensive those people who talk about the supposed performance of the cameras that they haven't touched. I do find offensive when people say that the end result between a K1 and a D810 (or a K-3 Mark II and a D7200 to be on topic) will be pretty similar given the fact that both cameras have the same number of MP. Why I find it offensive? Because these are just speculations based on what's availabe on the internet. What valuable information can you or anyone else that didn't shoot with both cameras can provide me other than what's obvious (the same number of MP on both cameras)? I tell you, none, 0 (zero) valid informations. You can't tell me about the mettering between these cameras in different conditions, you can't tell me how the skin tones are handeled at high ISO, you can tell me anything about handling, af, noise, using TTL flash, etc. On the other hand, if I make the mistake to say (I'm always talk about the gear I put my hands on) in a topic where someone ask about K1 vs 5D Mark IV that there is no dynamic situation (a scene that involves movement) in which K1 can beat 5D Mark IV, but if I continue and say that for astro or for landscape there is no way that 5D Mark IV can replicate the Pixel shift image, the comment in which I say that K1 beats the 5D Mark IV is completly ignored and some of you will focus in trying to argue my conclusions regarding the af performance even you didn't handeled the other camera.

I tend to ignore comments like these in which people act as they have been offended and add "a little venom" at the end of their comments by making allusions that I shoot with Canon so that they can move the attention of the others away from the initial topic/discussion. But Rondec, your affirmation regarding the number of MP of the new camera is similar to my affirmation regarding the third wheel and its usability. You expressed your thoughts/wishes without thinking or caring about the others needs. I wonder, if I would have made that affirmation regarding the number of MP of the speculated specs of K3 Mark III, would you have been bothered as weel?

[Rondec]

It seems to me that some comments are being made based on the sympathy or on the antipathy for the person that say something different regarding his needs/wishes/opinions for a camera that theoretically should come sooner or later.

We're talking about the K3 Mark II replacement and each and everyone said what he want from the new camera and some provided some arguments.

@monochrome, I understood your argument and I wouldn't have anything to say (on the contrary, I would agree with you completly) if the new technology that you reffered to would not replace or reduce another functionality that for me it's more important. In this particular case, a third wheel will reduce the functionality of the top screen which I find it very useful. K3 Mark II canceled the opportunity to use the small flash as a controller for off camera flashes by removing the on camera flash. I wasn't enthusiastic about having a GPS (which I never use) instead of the flash. It's a different thing to add new technology and keeping also the useful functions and it's a different thing to add technology by replacing or reducing the functionality of other functions already available and usefull on older models.

@rondec, you choosed to ignore my sugestions and focused on contradict me without a real argument and you added a little salt and peper to spice up the topic by adding Canon in the conversation in order to leave a wrong idea to the people who read these comments. Let me clarify it for you.
1. I find the top LCD important and having it as large as it is right now on K-3 Mark II is handy.
2. I find useless the third wheel and as I told to monochrome, I wouldn't care about it as long as is not affecting something that I find usefull (in this case the large top LCD). But it does affect it and so I expressed my wishes and I also offered 2 features that I would like to have on the K3 Mark III instead of that wheel. My suggestions were:
- adding a customisable My menu (Sony shooters screamed all over the internet regarding this feature and Sony listened and they implemented it in their latest models) and leave the top LCD as large as it is
- ad a touchscreen which will make the My menu function even easier to operate

You acted offended and you said "It really does bother me where someone says that just because they don't use a feature that no one would use it." I could say the same thing about this affirmation of yours; I quote you "Who cares if there are 24 or 28 or just 20 megapixels on the sensor as long as the overall performance is excellent. For me, excellent means high dynamic range at base iso and the ability to keep that (along with low noise) at higher isos.".

Maybe it does bother me when someone says that just because they don't care if the new camera has 20, 28 or 40mp as long as it has excellent overall performance (dynamic range in your case). Why? Maybe because I do care about the number of MP of the new camera. Maybe I do want a 40mp camera because I have the option to crop when needed or to print large when a client demands a large print. Or maybe I do want a 20mp camera instead of a 28 or 40mp camera because I don't want to invest in a new computer to deal with big files, or because a camera with lots of MP will not be forgiving with my lenses or with slightly human errors. Those action cameras (D500, D5, 7D Mark II/1Dx Mark II, A9, A6500) have few MP for certain reasons... And as much as D850 is considered to have excelent overall performance, I would not want it if I have to choose between it and a D5 for wildlife or sports, even if D5 would have had 7fps. Why? Because the af is better on D5, high ISO is better, color accuracy is better, and so on.

So you see, the lack or the presence of a third wheel may be a lot less important than the number of MP of the new camera. But I didn't "jumped to your neck" saying that I'm offended that you didn't thought at the others when you just expresed your thoughts and wishes.

I also do find offensive those people who talk about the supposed performance of the cameras that they haven't touched. I do find offensive when people say that the end result between a K1 and a D810 (or a K-3 Mark II and a D7200 to be on topic) will be pretty similar given the fact that both cameras have the same number of MP. Why I find it offensive? Because these are just speculations based on what's availabe on the internet. What valuable information can you or anyone else that didn't shoot with both cameras can provide me other than what's obvious (the same number of MP on both cameras)? I tell you, none, 0 (zero) valid informations. You can't tell me about the mettering between these cameras in different conditions, you can't tell me how the skin tones are handeled at high ISO, you can tell me anything about handling, af, noise, using TTL flash, etc. On the other hand, if I make the mistake to say (I'm always talk about the gear I put my hands on) in a topic where someone ask about K1 vs 5D Mark IV that there is no dynamic situation (a scene that involves movement) in which K1 can beat 5D Mark IV, but if I continue and say that for astro or for landscape there is no way that 5D Mark IV can replicate the Pixel shift image, the comment in which I say that K1 beats the 5D Mark IV is completly ignored and some of you will focus in trying to argue my conclusions regarding the af performance even you didn't handeled the other camera.

I tend to ignore comments like these in which people act as they have been offended and add "a little venom" at the end of their comments by making allusions that I shoot with Canon so that they can move the attention of the others away from the initial topic/discussion. But Rondec, your affirmation regarding the number of MP of the new camera is similar to my affirmation regarding the third wheel and its usability. You expressed your thoughts/wishes without thinking or caring about the others needs. I wonder, if I would have made that affirmation regarding the number of MP of the speculated specs of K3 Mark III, would you have been bothered as weel?

I have said many times on this forum that there really aren't any bad cameras out there. Even an entry level camera is capable of good photography. In this sort of market, it is really hard to stand out. I think the 5D MK IV and D810 certainly have better auto focus than the K-1 and better flash support. But this particular thread is about a K3 II replacement, which I imagine will have many of the features of the K3 II, including astro tracer and pixel shift, but will add a better sensor with an accelerator chip. I have no idea what else they will throw in or how good the auto focus will be.

Arguing about the third control wheel is like arguing about ergonomics. We tend to like what we are used to. I seldom use the top LCD, as you said earlier, all of the information is in the viewfinder and you don't really want to take your camera down to be checking settings and things like that. At the same time, personally, I have found it very easy to use the extra wheel to turn on wi fi, turn of shake reduction and do a number of other things that are also accessible from menus. It is quicker for me. When I first started shooting with a K-1 I didn't know if I would like the third control wheel, but over time I have warmed to a lot. But I will freely admit that I shoot with Pentax cameras. That is my bias and so I am very comfortable with the way they do things. You are used to Canon cameras and I really don't feel comfortable using their cameras because it is so different from what I am used to, but I'm sure I could learn if I shot with one for an extended period of time.

I'm not meaning to attack you, just to say that arguing about ergonomics is like arguing about whether you think liver and onions is tasty. I don't, but plenty of other people do and the funny thing is that neither of us is wrong.

[Dan Rentea]

I have said many times on this forum that there really aren't any bad cameras out there.

I didn't argue this statement and never will. My dissatisfaction are generally orientated to other things that have nothing to do with the performance of the cameras released in the last couple of years.

I think the 5D MK IV and D810 certainly have better auto focus than the K-1 and better flash support. But this particular thread is about a K3 II replacement, which I imagine will have many of the features of the K3 II, including astro tracer and pixel shift, but will add a better sensor with an accelerator chip. I have no idea what else they will throw in or how good the auto focus will be.

I was reffering to K3 Mark II replacement in my initial comment and to be more precise, about a third wheel added to the upcoming body. 5D Mark IV, D810, D5, etc. are just examples I used to argument why I find important the number of mp.

Arguing about the third control wheel is like arguing about ergonomics. We tend to like what we are used to. I seldom use the top LCD, as you said earlier, all of the information is in the viewfinder and you don't really want to take your camera down to be checking settings and things like that. At the same time, personally, I have found it very easy to use the extra wheel to turn on wi fi, turn of shake reduction and do a number of other things that are also accessible from menus. It is quicker for me. When I first started shooting with a K-1 I didn't know if I would like the third control wheel, but over time I have warmed to a lot. But I will freely admit that I shoot with Pentax cameras. That is my bias and so I am very comfortable with the way they do things. You are used to Canon cameras and I really don't feel comfortable using their cameras because it is so different from what I am used to, but I'm sure I could learn if I shot with one for an extended period of time.

I was used and I'm used to certain models from Canon. I'm also used with K-5 II, K-3 II quite well and I took more time with K1 than most of the internet reviewers. I'm also very familiar with some Nikon cameras, with a few Sony (I will never put my hands again on a A7 or A7 II but that's another story) and with 2 Fuji cameras because I go to meetings, I rent gear, etc. And when I say that I'm familiar them it means that I can operate them on the fly and I have taken at least a couple of thousand images with them. K1 has the exposure compensation and ISO buttons in perfect positions. Bracketing, HDR, and the other stuff are not needed on the fly, but I know that it's handy to have them available with just 1-2 clicks. That's why I said that what others implemented in their cameras, My menu in this particular case, has 2 big advantages over the third wheel:
1. it doesn't require to reduce the space of the top LCD and it can be accessed by pressing the Menu button (one click to access the Menu and on click to select the function you want if you have touchscreen capability); These were 2 sugestions that I made, other than what others have said regarding, af, high ISO and so on.
2. you can add to that menu anything from the general menu. You're not limitated to 7 functions which are availabe on the wheel + another 2 function from the wheel that are already available on 2 dedicated buttons.

I'm not meaning to attack you

Thank you for clarifying this aspect.

just to say that arguing about ergonomics is like arguing about whether you think liver and onions is tasty. I don't, but plenty of other people do and the funny thing is that neither of us is wrong.

You see this as an ergonomic thing and maybe because of this we have different opinions. I see this function (my menu) as an option with more choices to choose from (you can choose 6 or 12 important things from the general menu and you can change those 6-12 things anytime if your needs/priorities changes) and in the meantime as an way to leave what is already good (large top LCD in this case) at the same size.

[branitelj91]

Mee and Twilhelm, I agree completely.


I'm not surprised by any delay here. Pentax is not a behemoth, with tons of resources to throw at the wall. The K1 is a solid DSLR that should serve well for a large percentage of users who would be in the market for a K3 III+ class APS-C SLR camera.

Pentax must be scratching their head, watching the rest of the world and marketplace shift around them.

High volume consumers are vanishing, increasingly happy with the camera in their iPhone 6/7/8/10 (which frankly are darn good.) Judging by the questions I answer at work (where folks always ask me for camera advice) there is less and less interest in carrying a DSLR system. Many people bought one, and either have no need to upgrade, or they realized they never bring their DSLR anywhere because of size and weight.

Meanwhile, pros and dedicated amateurs are warming to mirrorless, lead there by the pro mirrorless cameras offered by Hasselblad, Fuji and Sony. Pentax is left with SLR-based MF digital and full-frame 35mm digital that suddenly look outdated and clunky.

Yes, there are times you want an optical finder of a DSLR -- birding and high speed sports. But I don't personally know anyone who shoots those, and judging by Flickr the majority of folks shoot landscapes or slow-moving people (portraits.) For this majority, there are real advantages to mirrorless, and the DSLR architecture starts to look clunky and rube-goldbergian.

As a manufacturer (whether it's Pentax or Nikon) you have to look at Sony and Fuji and Hassy and think .... here's a way to make desirable cameras that cost less to engineer, manufacture and support, and/or offer a better profit margin.

If Pentax (and Nikon) aren't having these thoughts, then I worry about them still being here in ten years time.

The move to mirrorless is inevitable. It's like the move from viewfinder/rangefinder cameras to SLR cameras in the 60's. The rational drivers are too strong to resist for most of the market and manufacturers. Those with a valid reason to prefer the older technology will continue to be served, but likely only by one manufacturer who stakes claim to the legacy form. With rangefinders it was Leica. With SLRs ... who knows. But do Pentax or Nikon really want to become even more of a niche brand? Especially as they don't have the Veblen glow of Leica?

Therefore any thought of the Pentax K3 II successor being mirrorless is music to my ears.

I can only agree with filmamigo whre he says that mirrorless K3 is no less than music to his ears.

As amateur user, I only can add to this idea, that Pentax - Ricoh should consider bit more cooperation with mayor lens producers. Hoping that next in production of pentax lens is 11 - 18 f 2.8 and some others are really tempting to keep up on the PK boat. However, Still have some idea to jump slowly to E-mount boat. Somehow, I really trust that Pentax - Ricoh is loosing a racce to some degree. The CEO should pay more attention to forums like this one in order to derive some possible leads for future!!

[BigMackCam]

I can only agree with filmamigo whre he says that mirrorless K3 is no less than music to his ears.

Still have some idea to jump slowly to E-mount boat. Somehow, I really trust that Pentax - Ricoh is loosing a racce to some degree.

I shoot both Pentax DSLRs and Sony mirrorless. They offer very different shooting experiences, with different strengths and weaknesses, suited to some common tasks but each with its own specialisations. If Pentax came out with a mirrorless camera, I'd be delighted - but only if that wasn't at the expense of its DSLR production. And, frankly, I don't think the Pentax division has sufficient resources to manufacture and support both DSLR and mirrorless bodies...

[jlstrawman]

I shoot both Pentax DSLRs and Sony mirrorless. They offer very different shooting experiences, with different strengths and weaknesses, suited to some common tasks but each with its own specialisations. If Pentax came out with a mirrorless camera, I'd be delighted - but only if that wasn't at the expense of its DSLR production. And, frankly, I don't think the Pentax division has sufficient resources to manufacture and support both DSLR and mirrorless bodies...

My thoughts and experience, 100%. +1.

[branitelj91]

I shoot both Pentax DSLRs and Sony mirrorless. They offer very different shooting experiences, with different strengths and weaknesses, suited to some common tasks but each with its own specialisations. If Pentax came out with a mirrorless camera, I'd be delighted - but only if that wasn't at the expense of its DSLR production. And, frankly, I don't think the Pentax division has sufficient resources to manufacture and support both DSLR and mirrorless bodies...

The

And, frankly, I don't think the Pentax division has sufficient resources to manufacture and support both DSLR and mirrorless bodies...

part, really glimpsed through my mind.
Hovever, they might have some nifty results if someone smart sits by the table and starts to define priorities. Finacial issue is first, (of course), but they really need to cover current production line with all updated and redesigned hardware. In a first place I mean the lens line for both crop and ff bodies, as users may draw far more then average results from current bodies just if they had adequate lens coverage. And as for bodies issues, I strongly trust that if they redesign their firmwares, for example to leave out idea of having all these nifty pictograms to spare memory and use this spared memory for something more useful, ie. remote view and control in K5, (in particular), or K3 model and so on. I know that k5 is somewhat old, but still has ability to take breath from observer which could be even "breathtakier" if the firmware could support tetherd shooting and viewing.
This was just my opservation.

[photoptimist]

Although I wish the K-1's topplate had a larger display, there's no way I'd sacrifice the third wheel to get a bigger display. Most of the time, the third-wheel is set to:

ISO: In M, Av, Tv, and B modes, I love having direct control of ISO with the third wheel.

or

+/- : With spot-metering, the third-wheel gives dedicated control over EV compensation.

I could imagine some of the other 3rd-wheel settings being handy but have not used them much.

[reh321]

I can only agree with filmamigo whre he says that mirrorless K3 is no less than music to his ears.

I would be surprised if they released any MILC - but I'd be especially surprised if they based one on the K-3


(1) the K-01 was related to the K-30


(2) the K-70 is newer than the K-3ii, and its sensor was designed to be used on a MILC


(3) Canon's latest MILC is based on a camera competing with the K-70

[mecrox]

If Ricoh started out on a larger-format line of MILCs (perhaps in partnership with another outfit/platform), it would be a signal that they are prepared to get stuck in for a long while and really do want to play their part in the photography industry. Their present course - pretty slow development on mirrorbox - sends out out the signal that a certain amount of bet-hedging is going on, and that Ricoh could be gone at any time. I happen to prefer mirrorless and am sure it is the future of the industry. I realise that some folks don’t agree with either view, but to me this is a matter of confidence in the brand. Confidence is key to me. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Kunzite]

As if developing the FF DSLR line is not a sign they're in for the long run.
As if we didn't had examples of MILC makers which exited the camera market 5 years after announcing their new and shiny MILC system.
And as if anything they'd do could stop the PentaxIsDoomed.

[mecrox]

As if developing the FF DSLR line is not a sign they're in for the long run.
As if we didn't had examples of MILC makers which exited the camera market 5 years after announcing their new and shiny MILC system.
And as if anything they'd do could stop the PentaxIsDoomed.

Lol, I wonder whether anyone really still believes this endless maskirovka.

But hey don’t take my word for it. Just read Canon’s latest financial report where they say they intend to “maintain sales growth, driven by mirrorless cameras where double-digit sales growth continues”. Follow the money.

The best results clearly now come from a mix of the two types. No one is saying it’s an either/or game so why pretend it is? If Ricoh switched Aps-c to mostly (and eventually all) mirrorless in the near future I doubt it would be thought a big surprise. And it would be seen as going all-in.

[kevinWE]

i would like to see a K-3II with a tilting LCD screen. I do not know why they didn't release this model with such a feature straight out of the gate.